Posted by: Junahu | June 19, 2010

Movesets of the Past [#6]

 

 There’s a lot to be said about the existing characters in Super Smash Bros, like Ness or Captain Falcon. After all, if it wasn’t a great series, we wouldn’t be making movesets for it in the first place. We may not like to admit so, but these simple, practical and fun movesets are significantly more polished and balanced than anything we could cough up. Hell, Ness’ Up-Special alone is the single most incredible piece of subversive logic ever made for a fighting game, and Captain Falcon’s moveset literally defined the man himself.

I can already see myself getting chewed out for this. But really, this has to be said; our movesets are terrible. Fun to read and imagine yes, but nowhere near fun to actually play as. Very few manage to be practical enough to be plausable, and even then that’s only from a theoretical standpoint. Once you factor in the sheer range of hoops that Smash characters have to be capable of jumping through (more so than any other fighting game), the staggering impossibility of it all becomes apparant.

Bear in mind that there are full teams of people, who work on a full-time basis, just to create these “generic” “derivative” movesets that we so frequently derride to boost our own egos. And while our own movesets may entertain 20 unknown strangers who just happen to be in the same boat anyway, real movesets have a far greater audience; one that has no patience for a “snappy” (i.e. lumbering and awkward) trap playstyle, or a f-tilt with 20 individual permutations, or a n-air that appears to do nothing unless some conditions are met beforehand. People in general are fickle and shallow, and are no strangers to hating an entire game for some tiny nonsense reason. These people (and you, secretly) would prefer to see an awesome looking punch launch someone across the screen, to anything that tries something more substantial or thought provoking. They’re excitement junkies, not chess masters.

My point, is that the concept of “quality” in MYM is only a relative one. And those that believe there is an absolute measurement for it, fundamentally lack proof (and, ironically, the measurement itself too). Everyone brings their own perspective to MYM, and their own understanding of what makes a moveset good. I’m not saying everyones perspective is wrong, but rather, everyones perspective is a small piece of the right one. That’s why we all vote for the Top50, instead of having the movesets appraised by a neutral board of judges.

So it’s important for people to respect that others may have opinions of their own. And it’s equally important to establish your own perspective, without assuming that the current bandwagon is the “correct” one. From the start, MYM was about this kind of drawing together of varying opinions and talent, without specifically championing one approach over another.

So I’ve spent all this time establishing… what exactly? Is this really another “Movesets of the Past”?

It is, and yes I needed to make my point clear on this, because the topic for this week is something many of you would genuinely consider a bad moveset. Dull, boring, and completely unneccesarily specific with every possible detail. This is the rarest kind of set of all. One that truly does have their eyes set on full Brawl implementation, and isn’t simply content to revel in exciting vagaries. This is the side of MYM that is promptly swept under the rug in favor of  shallower pipe dreams you can shat out in 6 hours and read in 30 minutes

-Will&Freedan—

While there is much room for addition, for those future MYMers who succeed me, I hope my move set will stand as the seminal read for Illusion of Gaia in SSB

You just know you’re in for a unique experience, when a moveset is prefaced by something like THIS. Hell, there’s a whole section of Pk’s intentions and various glossery terms before anything referring to the moveset itself is even mentioned

His idle stance is engaged, yet immobile. He is front-facing, and bobs slightly around his heels, like Pit but less so. He remains steady, moving only as he draws breath. His arms are slightly up at his sides, palms down, like he is going to use his fists, except not exactly ideal for that

The attention to superfluous details such as these permeates the entire moveset. This monster read, documents everything there is to know about the moveset, with conviction and enthusiasm for the pure art of designing that is truly palpable. Naturally, the whole thing is a pretty repellant read, but Pk’s intentions were clear from the start, and he was every bit successful in carrying those intentions out.

.Freedan’s shield is large, but so too is Freedan, and a shielding Freedan player will have to make judicious use of the angling feature if he intends to stay protected. In brief, Freedan can keep himself as well guarded as Ganon.

A lot of readers hate this kind of non-vital detail, but to me, it shows just how much thought went into designing every aspect of the moveset. Pk, knows just how much one character can differ from another, and the subtle effects one change can have on the entire moveset

Here, a sort of electric hum is heard, which grows louder as an object in the effect’s pull comes closer to Will. (If an object suddenly appears close to Will, the sound will discontinuously jump to that amplitude.)

Yes, Pk really DID address what would happen to the SOUND a move makes, if an item were to spawn closeby. This kind of dedication is literally awe inspiring, even at the genuine cost of being a real tl:dr.

and so on an so on…

I’m sure you get the pattern here. No need to bang on about it for another 1000 words, even though I could (and probably should… given the subject of this week’s moveset and the point I’m trying to make)

By all our normal measures of quality Will&Freedan is a weak moveset, barely readable and literally unread by 95% of people in MYM. It doesn’t try to do anything new, make a statement on current playstyle trends, or open up a new kind of matchup  for people to use, but does that explicitly make the moveset “bad”? If we’re talking content and craftsmanship, Will&Freedan has Doppelori beat by a swimmer’s mile. While my moveset is just a general plot the reader can get the gist of, Pk’s was a full on manuscript of intent/method/execution that didn’t suggest anything, unless it can actually be done. Was all that effort not even worth one measly positive comment?

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Responses

  1. I actually read this whole set. Made Pegasus look easy to read *shudders*

  2. oh, well done. You get one shiny sticker of excellence. Collect all five to win a prize

  3. I find it ironic that this was posted right after the presentation article, as this is a perfect example of presentation killing the reception of an otherwise acceptable moveset. =P

    I did skim the set btw. It was decent enough, and yeah, being implementable into Brawl is a fine goal, but when everyone outright admits this is a theoretical excercise it’s kinda silly to worry about whether the things will be programmed in properly. And I don’t want to rag on anybody so I’ll leave it at that.

    (chew)

  4. Is something still ironic when it was fully intended to be so?

    Basically I want to promote a healthy understanding for different approaches to moveset making, and that includes styles that go against the grain, like this one.
    Progress can only be achieved through a healthy difference of opinion. It spurs people to improve and show others the true worth of their viewpoint, or even try to find a new path of their own. That extends to any creative art
    It’s when people AGREE on stuff, that I actually start to worry. Homogenous goals only work to an extent, beyond which we have to start to sacrifice our individuality to persue them

    ¬_¬ damn I like to ramble on at 6 am, huh?

  5. Because all of the “work” done on all of these mind numbingly generic movesets that Smashbrosmike is perfectly capable of coming up with was clearly done by the designer, yes? He specifically went in and told them all of the properties of the moves like Will and Freedan laid out, I’m sure. Will and Freedan reads as a diagram for actual implantation of a Sakurai moveset into Brawl with no concern for it’s actual audience – which based off this article is exactly what you want movesetting to be. Will and Freedan has nothing for actual players – it’s just an instruction manual “how-to” for the programmer. Sounds fun.

    All this boils down to is making movesets playable by retarded people who aren’t trying to actually get anything out of the experience. How much do these pathetic movesets offer a competent player to toy around with? A bunch of exploits that the designer never hoped to intend and ideally should’ve been fixed for the character to play as the designer intended. Little else.

    No seriously, please stop commenting my movesets – I don’t want your opinion. Since my sets are so terrible anyway along with all MYM sets, you aren’t missing much of anything, right? I WANT you to fucking hate my movesets if you hate MYM sets and love those terrible sets ANYBODY here could make in 5 minutes or less that have ZERO thought put into them. The least you could do is to not make such broad sweeping generalizations and dogpile everything together in a pile of shit.

    You’ve been going into more and more dangerous waters with this recently, but really. Are you –trying- to start a war or what? This is just fucking outrageous. Don’t try to pin this on me – this article is a kick in the balls to me and most all MYMing. This article is an act of war. Religious sects in MYM already exist, HR. Oh, and if it wasn’t clear enough yet, I hate you. Just clearing that up. I don’t care what you are as a “person” – you are insulting me specifically by saying these things. This is unforgivable.

    It’s only when we actually get into philosophy that we rip each other to shreds – when we’re actually commenting movesets in the thread, more often then not you can cough up some legitimate excuses as to why you like/dislike what you do that actually make some degree of sense. I find it strange everything can be so civil in the actual process, things only going so crazy in hypothetical religious discussions.

    But anyway, again, what’s the point of something like Dark Bowser being playable by casuals? We come back again to those stupidly broad sweeping generalizations – the main thing that did you in with this article. All MYM sets are terrible and unplayable by casuals and the Brawl sets are the epitome of movesetting – we’re not allowed to achieve multiple things at the same time, only to focus entirely on the casuals which is strictly playability and flash. If flash is what you seek, why not go back to MYM 4? Yes, some sets are unplayable and impractical in a Team Rocket like fashion, but not everything is retarded. MYM 4 sets would seem to be your ideal cup of tea based off this article.

    So anyway, why are primarily focusing on legitimate gamers? Because they’re the people who are actually going to try to play the game for more then an hour or two. You have much more potential stuff to give them to explore. And anyway, it is very clearly impossible to make a set playable for casuals while still keeping legitimate playstyle for actual gamers, as proven by Dark Bowser. Not that the fact that Dark Bowser is so much flashier matters while still being perfectly playable. Nevermind how he even has a fucking 3 on 1 boss moveset you can toy around with which is pretty much the definition of something a casual faps to. Falcon Punch is far more interesting.

    Can you leave yet? MYM is dying anyway – which you should enjoy seeing all MYM sets are terrible.

  6. I have to say, the first part of this article is just stupid. All our movesets are terrible – really, Junahu? That’s abhorrent.

  7. Well this is a wonderful little firestorm.

    I think that while Sakurai movesets may be interesting when actually implemented, they are surely boring as all hell on paper, with the opposite being true of MYM sets, generally.

    Will & Freedan was very implementable, with a great attention to detail, but it wasn’t really interesting to read. As you said, he accomplished his main goals, but those goals are something that lack an audience in this community. I’m pretty sure that the number of MYMers who would like to read a Brawl set is way, way lower than those that would like to read something a little different, to have their mind stretched in a new way.

    Mind you, the whole point of MYM is to provide entertainment for one’s self, so as long as Pk had fun with it, then he really doesn’t need the approval of his peers.

    And as a final note, I don’t think MYMsets could really be considered terrible. The direction MYMing has gone in isn’t really all that surprising, considering that no MYMer has to program their moveset into anything, meaning there’s no pressure to make it implementable.

    Really, I think everybody should just kinda chill here. Junahu includes himself when he says ‘OUR movesets are terrible’. He’s simply referring to today’s style of MYMing as a bit impractical and unrealistic, which I’m pretty sure anybody who spent two minutes thinking about it could have realized. He acknowledges that they’re fun to read and imagine, which is all most of us want out of it, right? Just a difference in opinion, and I’d advise we all just move on.

    (CHEW)

  8. So our sets are terrible because theyre impractical to program for a real game? I guess that means Macho Man is the best moveset ever created in all of MYM. (SMIRK2)

    [/HR]

  9. Telling Warlord to chill? Ridiculous. Preposterous. Insane.

    Junahu is such a benevolent person and he’s speaking in such logical terms that it should be a given that he’ll be attacked for it.

    “How much do these pathetic movesets offer a competent player to toy around with?”

    Dude, there’s practically a cult built around Smash Bros. People make their living off of playing this game.

    Junahu is speaking in relative terms. Obviously he likes our movesets; he’s stepping up to bat for Sakurai sets, which have stepped on and blasted so many times that we now consider them some sort of antichrist.

    Our sets ARE impractical. Ask any competitive player – hell, ask OCON – and they’ll explain that our sets are overcomplicated. I’ve said it before: it takes months and months to master a Sakurai character, and improving is a neverending process. What we’re doing in MYM is not making sets more fun, but making them more distinct from one another. It’s always bothered me that most of the characters in Brawl play similarly. It’s why I did this. It’s the point of playstyle.

    And Junahu is totally right when he says that 95% of the target audience would rather smash things up with a Falcon Punch than successfully trap the opponent in a cage, cool though the latter concept might be.

    That’s what I think, anyway. It doesn’t really have anything to do with Will & Freedan, a set I respect but could never like. That set’s terrible reception was practically set in stone anyway, since everybody hated PK-ow for whatever obscure reason. I thought he was a good guy.

  10. I can understand that the benevolent God that is Junahu is talking down to the little people who disagree with Sakurai’s great inventions. The movesets in Brawl are entirely uninspired – full of boring inputs, that generally do not add to any kind of flow. They’re just random punches, kicks and throws.

    What our movesets do now is cut the learning curve exponentially by creating movesets with playstyle in mind, so that a player can easily pick up and play with the character competently at a high level. What was even more true with Melee than Brawl is that there were massive gaps between the top-level pros and the scrubs, because the game is broken. To some degree, so is Brawl and these are the only reasons why certain characters dominate the metagame.

    This is why MYM must abandon the horrible Sakurai style of movesetting and has successfully shaken it off since MYM5. There is nothing good anymore to divulge from the man’s sets, other than as a pivot in which to compare. Even then, it’s just basic stuff like animation or appearance.

    Really, we have transcended above that level of creation. There are far, far better individual movesetters now than are at Sakurai’s company that made Brawl. We don’t know who made each moveset, but we can discern that, unlike the guys at MYM, these people only thought about imbalances from a purely bugs and glitches viewpoint. They also couldn’t care less if a moveset is good, as long as it has some fan service and is easy to play as for a casual.

    Keeping in mind we have the already done Sakurai crap anyway, MYM supplies the big boy’s movesets which don’t suck. Honestly, no one wants to see Warlord or Junahu go back to the hell that is Sakurai’s Brawl, so why should they? It holds no benefit, other than being a smarmy up-your-self MYM philosopher proving how above everyone else you think you are. At least, this is my humble opinion on the matter.

  11. At no point does Junahu ever talk down to people, and at no point does he say that Sakurai’s Brawl is the way to go. He’s arguing for acceptance of other MYMing methods, and he’s doing it peaceably. You can’t make him out to be the bad guy here.

    Smarmy up-your-self MYM philosopher, indeed.

  12. And Junahu is totally right when he says that 95% of the target audience would rather smash things up with a Falcon Punch than successfully trap the opponent in a cage, cool though the latter concept might be.

    Then 95% of the target audience needs to be shot.

    It’s not like our sets couldn’t be significantly dumbed down for these utterly preposterous accusations and wouldn’t still be massively better – the fact that they’re actually designed. I don’t know what you call those pieces of shit in Brawl, but they show zero hand of intelligent design – it’s a mass of chemicals thrown together by the big bang.

    And no, I would -not- play stuff like Videoman.EXE and Lunge in an actual game, but Dark Bowser and Cairne feel perfectly feasible with a learning curve that isn’t 5 years.

    I’m still dying to get out of this shithole and prove the lot of you wrong – furthermore, I won’t have to deal with this presentation nonsense that is entirely forced and obligatory.

    At no point does Junahu ever talk down to people

    Fuck you – he’s taking a gigantic shit on everything that I’ve done and cared about for the past 2 years and praising movesets that spontanously appeared out of nothing with no responsible designer. He is shitting on ME. There is nothing worse he could’ve possibly said than what he just said now.

    Unrelated, but why did the both of you (Roonahu) say you liked/would buy my game with Spy again?

    And why are you making sets like Joy and such. . .?

  13. How is he not the bad guy here? He calls MYM’s movesets “terrible,” though I suppose you can say he’s insulting himself a little bit, too. But then again, it’s not like he considers himself part of the collective, nor this PK-ow set.

    It’s no bash at Junahu, I simply dislike the connotation that we’ve made no progress because we haven’t followed this one method. The method may be overly-criticised, yet I don’t honestly see why that means it’s the right one either. Personally, I’m glad movesets like Will & Freedan aren’t made much anymore – they’re tiresome to read.

  14. Not to place Sakurai’s sets on a pedestal, but there is SOMETHING appealing about a simple moveset built around a few creative core concepts. Come on, is anyone here gonna tell me that Peach doesn’t have at least a semblence of an aerial-based playstyle because of her float? Or that Snake isn’t a nice attempt at making a trap character without relying on EVERY MOVE being a trap? While I do agree with Rool that Sakurai’s sets tend to not have enough thought put into differenciating the characters’ gameplay, it’s perfectly possible to have a fun, distinct playstlye without requiring every input to have a super-special function. Isn’t that entire reason everyone loves my Macho Man set, because it remained extremley simple while providing a completley original playstyle?

    Now obviously making a set with a bunch of random generic moves isn’t going to give you a cohesive playstyle, and of course nobody would enjoy a moveset without any fun mechanics to use. But you don’t have to be really complicated to be creative, and you can have plenty of simple attacks while retaining a playstyle. You just need a few core mechanics that your moves can connect to that emphasize their use in a certain way.

    Of course, having really creative stuff CAN certainly be tons of fun for casuals and competive players. Casuals get more “FUN SPECIALS =D” and competitive players have a game that has more layers to explore. In Tatsunoko vs Capcom, a move interaction was just discovered between 2 or Roll’s specials, and nobody went “How dare they add this special mechanic!”, they were EXCITED to see a new strategy to incorporate into their game.

    While I don’t exactly find Sakurai’s sets as ideal examples of moveset design, they’re clearly doing something right if people are playing these games after 3 iterations. Rather than completley shun them, we should look for the aspects we LIKE and try to incorporate that into our own sets. That way we can have the best of both worlds.

    (pce)

  15. See, HR’s really barking up the right tree here. He says:

    “Rather than completley shun them, we should look for the aspects we LIKE and try to incorporate that into our own sets.”

    There IS something to be gleaned from what Sakurai did, just like modern-day films owe a lot to silent movies that even I could barely sit through and never want to see again. And, on some level, they exist in very different worlds and both work in very different ways.

    So Junahu says:

    “My point, is that the concept of “quality” in MYM is only a relative one. And those that believe there is an absolute measurement for it, fundamentally lack proof.”

    He may have used some drastic, provocative terms to make this point (not a good idea in this climate, for reference), but there it is: what one man says is bad can be viewed as good by another without either of them being wrong.

    When he says that our movesets are terrible, he’s both exaggerating and speaking relatively. He’s just making a point, and I’m convinced that he’ll carry on making sets like Joy regardless. This really isn’t something to make a huge fuss over.

    I would buy the CTF game because, with a bit of smoothing, it sounds like it could be a hell of a lot of fun. That doesn’t mean I’d break my Brawl disc in half.

  16. Bah, my point was that quality is a matter of perspective. A moveset we love for one reason can be just as hated by someone else, for the same reason. If we perpetuate the idea that only one approach is correct, then it becomes impossible to discover anything new. ¬_¬ Rool got there before I did

    The one thing I’ve taken from all that extensive arguing, is that there is a general consensus to make the game more suited to, and enjoyable by, high-level players. While an approach like that would increase the game’s longevity with its existing audience, it would prove too daunting to any new audience. And any snub to new players generally leads to problems in the long-term.

    I think a major part of Brawl’s design, is that most of the personality and excitement comes from the stage, items and kinetic physics, rather than specifically from the characters themselves. With a simple control scheme and moveset, the player is able to focus their attention on the bigger picture. Smash is pretty unique in that its simplicity encourages an extrospective view of the match, which is pretty vital when there are 4 players, stage hazards and upwards of 10 unique items in action all at once.

  17. The one thing I’ve taken from all that extensive arguing, is that there is a general consensus to make the game more suited to, and enjoyable by, high-level players. While an approach like that would increase the game’s longevity with its existing audience, it would prove too daunting to any new audience. And any snub to new players generally leads to problems in the long-term.

    There is only so much we can do for a casual who barely wants to look at any of what we’ve done – and please tell me how a casual would prefer a Sakurai set over a “good” MYM 4 set.

    I think a major part of Brawl’s design, is that most of the personality and excitement comes from the stage, items and kinetic physics, rather than specifically from the characters themselves. With a simple control scheme and moveset, the player is able to focus their attention on the bigger picture. Smash is pretty unique in that its simplicity encourages an extrospective view of the match, which is pretty vital when there are 4 players, stage hazards and upwards of 10 unique items in action all at once.

    Then it seems fair that considering playstyle is essentially meant for high level play that the characters make up for the lack of items and stages, no?

    And no, you still have to take back those GIGANTICLY broad blanket statements about MYM that dwarf Valozarg personally. You are too involved here and I am going to attack you about this every time I see/communicate with you in the thread in any form. You don’t get to chicken out after the shit you just pulled.

  18. Making a game for people who just want to party is stupid, though – the hardcore fans are the ones who pick up the game on day one, and there are tens of thousands, if not millions of hardcore Smash fans. Why cater to casuals over this audience, who have been with the series since the beginning?

    Even the casual / core who aren’t competitive or pros would appreciate deeper movesets, if they’re done well like Dark Bowser or Octillery. Making them viable for high-level play is simply a courtesy for the most devoted. There’s no benefit to catering to -everyone,- as most people will be swayed by these deeper ideas anyway.

    I mean, the advertisers would be showing off whatever looks nice from the theoretical game(s) anyway. Would you be more attracted to a Dark Bowser who’s a clone of Bowser, or MW’s Dark Bowser? Seriously, it’s a no-brainer.

  19. “There is only so much we can do for a casual who barely wants to look at any of what we’ve done – and please tell me how a casual would prefer a Sakurai set over a “good” MYM 4 set”

    I’d rather not get sucked into your trap arguement, nor your ploy to use me as a venerable punching bag for your own insecurities.

    “Why cater to casuals over this audience, who have been with the series since the beginning?”

    Because Brawl’s existing fanbase has a given nostalgic tolerance for the series. They will continue to buy Smash games, regardless of whether they become more, or less deep. But as the existing players mature and their expectations grow, it eventually becomes financially (and timeframingly) unsound to design with them specifically in mind. They won’t be around forever, so it makes more long-term sense, to do everything you can to attract new and younger markets.

    sure there is always room to improve, and I don’t want to deny anyone their freedom to persue their own ideas. But it’s pure sophistry to assume that everyone wants more depth dictated to them.

    “Would you be more attracted to a Dark Bowser who’s a clone of Bowser, or MW’s Dark Bowser? Seriously, it’s a no-brainer”

    6_6 considering the heated emotions between MW and myself, I don’t feel up to answering that rhetorical question honestly

  20. Insecurities indeed. You’re the one who’s just claming up and cowering. I can’t even play this damn Mario Galaxy 2 because I’m too eager to prove points on this.

    And I’ll assume you wanted the clone by that, so don’t worry.

    What the fuck do I have to do to get you out of my fucking MYM?

  21. Well this got out of hand rather fast.

    I’m going to say right now I agree with Hyper Ridley entirely. If we didn’t have things like Ness’ Up Special or Snake’s mines going around, we would never have gotten were we are in the first place. At the same time, I think it’s unfair to say that Brawl has done better than anything Make Your Move has done. Yes, you could not pick up and play a MYM set as easily as, per say, Captain Falcon. At the same time, you can’t say that something like Dark Bowser would not open up all sorts of new possibilities in the game.

    No, he would not be easy to pick up and play(and I’m taking one of the easier to use MYM sets here), but there’s no doubt that even the casuals would enjoy occasionally sticking their opponent in a cage or throwing around minions. Sure, it might not be as straight up satisfying as a Falcon Punch, but it makes for some crazy Free For Alls. Not to mention pulling out his 3 vs 1 set on a bunch of people who decided to team up on you would be priceless. Does that seem so impossible to use in Smash Brothers to you, or at least impossible to have fun with.

    So what I’m saying is it’s not fair to take a dump on every set Make Your Move ever made to glorify Will and Freedan. I can understand wanting to compliment the work that went into this, but really insulting every bit of work you and other members of Make Your Move made is just terrible.

  22. my entire point was to get us to stop assuming one approach is inherantly “better” than another approach. I was trying highlight our own prejudices by showing the arguement from the opposite extreme. This article is hardly indicative of my real opinions.

    Pk-OW really sticks out to me, as someone who had a radical perspective on movesetting. But everyone just booed him out as if it was some crime to think differently. They took personal offense at his seemingly shallow reasons for disliking movesets. And they very much said the same thing you did just now;

    “it’s not fair to take a dump on every set Make Your Move ever made”

    -_- How many enemies have I made for posting a different opinion? Even if that opinion offends others, it’s not fair to explicitly label it as wrong. And it’s equally reprehensible to chase someone out for not thinking the same way as the hive mind.
    I thought part of being human was that we have the power to express our individuality?

  23. my entire point was to get us to stop assuming one approach is inherantly “better” than another approach. I was trying highlight our own prejudices by showing the arguement from the opposite extreme. This article is hardly indicative of my real opinions.

    So then, you’re just toying around by saying those abominable things that undermine the very basis of MYM to make a point? For some reason I don’t buy that everything you do it just symbolism/an experiment, much less when you only tell us -now-.

    -_- How many enemies have I made for posting a different opinion? Even if that opinion offends others, it’s not fair to explicitly label it as wrong. And it’s equally reprehensible to chase someone out for not thinking the same way as the hive mind.
    I thought part of being human was that we have the power to express our individuality?

    By promoting a viewpoint in such a way and endorsing it as you are doing, you’re essentially saying it should be the norm. Your broad blanket statements of every MYM set being terrible and every Brawl set being wonderful is essentially saying that MYM should cease to exist – you want BiTF, which can hardly be called MYM. Obviously I’m not going to let all of my work by flushed away and shit upon. I’m amazed how you couldn’t see how much of an article of war you’d written with this.

  24. If you had made it clear you were only trying to make another type of movesetting look more appealing, then I never would have said anything. If you really were not putting the rest of MYM down, then I apologize, though I wasn’t trying to be hostile in the first place.

  25. Paragraphs #4 and #5 of the article are explicitly clear on what point I was attempting to make.

  26. Been thinking. True that the developers of Brawl do spend a lot of time creating feasible movesets for the characters (except not staying too true into character, but this is somewhat acceptable), but we’re different.

    My thoughts on the opinion idea is that there’s no real wrong answer. I can see that Junhau is basically trying to tell us that it’s ok to have different opinions (like how I like extras and character representation). I don’t think Jun was trying to degrade MYM in any way, just at least try to develop a sense of liberation. He’s a good guy, which is easily portarayed in his comments.

    Our movesets will probably never see the light of day in a real video game (unless Brawlers create a fan-based game including our movesets for a higher competitive thrill). BUT, that’s not the point. I like the point of MYM being that it’s a chance for others to share their ideas of other characters in a FUN AND EDUCATIONAL manner, which is why I READ sets. Yet playing in the mym game is a great experience, as Im taking a little in from others in order to learn, such as ideals and presentation.

    Im basically the kind of person who doesn’t like to be on the winning side, though refuses to face absolute rejection. For me, there’s nothing wrong with powerful competitive sets like Dark Bowser or Axel Gear. It’s just that they don’t interest me as a person due to my opinions. Im more of a supporter for the fun of skimming.

    “HR: While I do agree with Rool that Sakurai’s sets tend to not have enough thought put into differenciating the characters’ gameplay, it’s perfectly possible to have a fun, distinct playstlye without requiring every input to have a super-special function. Isn’t that entire reason everyone loves my Macho Man set, because it remained extremley simple while providing a completley original playstyle?”

    I SVed him because of his loss pose. It was so awesome that I told my friends about it. They laughed. People can SV a set just for something as simple as that I think. Call me stupid but Im no sheep.

    Despite not being interested in powerful sets, it doesn’t mean that I don’t want to play for a chance at competition. If I don’t read powerful ideals, I won’t learn, yet at the same time they will not influence me, therefore preventing me from somewhat attempting to rip it off shamelessly.

    I guess actual movesetting for me is trying to present the idea in my way, though I get distracted and fail to implement a more fun tone. This in term makes me a hipocratic.

    Although this is my ideal on MYM. I don’t want to take sides, just exist in this competition as my own being.

  27. I would have liked to keep out of this whole argument, but because I feel like it’s sucking away attention from my Dionysus, I’ll bite. Now, let’s take a trip down memory lane. I’ll quote my man Fawriel here on this one:

    “This thread welcomes all crazy Smash fanatics who like to let their imagination run wild! If you love a certain fictional character, person, animal or inanimate object, and you want to show the world how awesome they’d look in Smash, here’s the place to do it.”

    – MYM1

    Now, 7 contests later, the very sets we’re supposed to enjoy making are being lambasted because they’re not realistic for Smash. MYM was never created to create movesets with these suffocating restrictions, but rather to let our imaginations run wild, as the creator of the contest says above.

    Now, whether this means creating a SBM set or fucking Father Time is 100% up to us. Of course, the reason we admonish Brawl sets today are because we, the “crazy Smash fanatics”, are unsatisfied with them, more than two years later. The very first MYMers created the thread to use their creative juices and produce sets with Brawl’s control scheme in mind, but pushing it beyond Brawl bit by bit because, what with their use of crazy effects and props. They did so because they thought it would be “awesome” to push Smash’s boundaries to incorporate their interests that weren’t there to begin with into the game. They never restricted themselves just because a few ideas would be too difficult to play as (although this was never a huge issue at the time). Because of the lack of restriction, well, here we are, two years later. And I still think our sets today are awesome for the same reasons I thought they were back then.

    In this day and age, many of us think it is “awesome” to see characters with crazy grabs and un-Smash mechanics, because we have pushed the boundaries of Smash this far. I am deeply disappointed that you have made the incredible generalization that all of our sets are horrible, just because what we find “awesome” does not fall within the boundaries that we were never restricted to in the first place. And even then, there are still sets that stay within these boundaries that are included in this generalization…incredible.

    I absolutely agree that different perspectives are important, and that quality has no real measurement. It does not, because whatever we find awesome, goes, in MYM. SBM’s sets are awesome to him in his own way. We collectively vote to determine which “awesome” ideas we enjoy the most as good sets, which may not included SBM sets and the like, but let me reference another little tidbit…oh yes.

    “Have fun! I demand you, HAVE FUN!!!” *points gun*

    – MYM3

    Ocon is correct; in the midst of this turmoil, we are slowly losing what has made the contest what it is: the aspect of F.U.N. Is it really the best idea to tell MYM the time we enjoy bringing our ideas to life for the joy of others and ourselves is horrible, when the point we’re trying to make is that every perspective is right in its own way? Do we need to generalize all MYMers as egotistical pricks? This is exactly what is causing these ‘sects’. We need to smarten up and quit putting out unwarranted generalizations in places where they were never asked for to begin with, and that would serve absolutely no purpose except to stir up a large quantity of great mighty shit.

    I implore that this message is heard by MYM, and we are able to move on from this unfortunate debacle.

    Kupa, out.

  28. I agree with Kupa. It doesn’t really sound like we’re having fun anymore, does it? Jeez, just put your differences aside before you drive yourselves crazy.

  29. Junahu isn’t being negative, and he’s certainly not saying putting time into our movesets is horrible. Jesus, I’m down and out here and even I can see that. The man’s arguing for acceptance of other viewpoints and LESS negativity.

    On another note, I find it hilarious that this post has so many comments. It’s a hell of a tl;dr of pedantry and discussion over insignificant things. Will & Freedan, eat your heart out.

  30. ¬_¬ As dubious an honour as it may be, this could very well be the article with the most comments on this whole blog…

    But it was nice to see Katapultar rant. He’s refreshingly honest about his stance on things.

  31. I want to tell you about some personal perceptions of mine, primarily because I have in my hands a list—a long one—of pestiferous scapegraces who have joined Junahu’s faction. As a preliminary, I want to maximize our individual potential for effectiveness and success in combatting Junahu. Shame on him for thinking that people like you and me are libidinous!

    Junahu’s vaporings cannot stand on their own merit. That’s why they’re dependent on elaborate artifices and explanatory stories to convince us that violence and prejudice are funny. To control your bank account, your employment, your personal safety, and your mind has never been something that I wanted to do. Never. Junahu’s claim that he can trick us into trading freedom for serfdom and get away with it requires a willing suspension of disbelief, an ability to set logic aside and accept any preposterous notion that Junahu throws at us.

    I just want to say that I am not interested in debating Junahu. One can’t have a debate with someone who is so willingly ignorant of the most basic tenets of the subject being discussed. While the concept of broad-based peace and social justice coalitions remains desirable, he has compiled an impressive list of grievances against me. Not only are all of these grievances completely fictitious, but I’d like very much to respond to Junahu’s claim that the world’s salvation comes from whims, irrationality, and delusions. Unfortunately, taking into account Junahu’s background, education, and intelligence, I am quite sure that Junahu would not be able to understand my response. Hence, let me say simply this: If one could get a Ph.D. in Plagiarism, Junahu would be the first in line to have one.

    No matter what else we do, our first move must be to educate everyone about how Junahu’s flighty excuses benefit from this sense of “us versus them”. That’s the first step: education. Education alone is not enough, of course. We must also pave the way for people of every sex, race, and socioeconomic status to fulfill their own spiritual destiny. An inner voice tells me that the term “idiot savant” comes to mind when thinking of Junahu. Admittedly, that term applies only halfway to him, which is why I contend that Junahu asserts that he is cunctipotent. That assertion is not only untrue but a conscious lie.

    Now, it is not my purpose to suggest that before you know it, Junahu’s platitudes will inure us to hidebound chauvinism but rather to reinvigorate our collective commitment to building and maintaining a sensitive, tolerant, and humane community. I could tell Junahu that it is my intent to serve on the side of Truth, although he obviously doesn’t care. I could tell him that he always turns to the dark bible of obstructionism whenever he needs ideas on how to prevent me from sleeping soundly at night, but he wouldn’t believe me. He probably also doesn’t care that nobody ever went broke underestimating his intelligence. So let me appeal to whatever small semblance of reason Junahu may be capable of when I tell him that he has a natural talent for complaining. He can find any aspect of life and whine about it for hours upon hours.

    Junahu’s latest manifesto, like all the ones that preceded it, is a consummate anthology of disastrously bad writing teeming with misquotations and inaccuracies, an odyssey of anecdotes that are occasionally entertaining but certainly not informative. The interesting point is this: If anything, I am now in a position to define what I mean when I say that Junahu’s barbs will send us to Hell in a handbasket by the next full moon. What I mean is that most of you reading this post have your hearts in the right place. Now follow your hearts with actions. I have taken the liberty of letting Junahu know that he has occasionally been successful at preaching fear and ignorance. Upon such points his natural character always exhibits itself most determinedly as he further strives to establish rack-and-thumbscrew programs. If you observe some repetition in my statements, it is because such repetition is needed for clarity and emphasis as I tell him how wrong he is.

    Although Junahu has repeatedly denied charges of attempting to twist the history, sociology, and anthropology disseminated by our mass media and in our children’s textbooks, it’s astonishing that he has been able for so long to get away with sounding the standard “they’re out to get us” call and rallying his goons to bombard us with an endless array of hate literature. I can’t think of anything that better illustrates the failure of our justice system to deal with such shameless misers. I mean, really.

    All this aside, I want to lead the way to the future, not to the past. But first, let me pose an abstract question. Is Junahu a professional simpleton or merely a well-meaning amateur? I don’t pretend to know the answer, but I do know that if I didn’t think Junahu would invent a new moral system that legitimizes his desire to use scapegoating as a foil to draw anger away from more accurate targets, I wouldn’t say that he likes to brag about how the members of his flock are ideologically diverse. Perhaps that means that some of them prefer Stalin over Hitler. In any case, what really irks me is that Junahu has presented us with a Hobson’s choice. Either we let him befuddle the public and make sin seem like merely a sophisticated fashion or he’ll exploit the public’s short attention span in order to pooh-pooh the concerns of others.

    Okay, I admit that in my effort to uncover Junahu’s hidden prejudices, I will need to show principle, gumption, verve, and nerve. But Junahu says that his theories are Holy Writ. Although Junahu clearly cut that statement out of whole cloth, at this point in the post I had planned to tell you that he often recruits putrid-to-the-core savages who bring to his cause new energy and a willingness to appropriate sacred symbols for power-hungry purposes. However, one of my colleagues pointed out that we stand to lose far more than we’ll ever gain if we don’t dole out acerbic criticism of Junahu and his phalanx of maladroit trucklers. Hence, I discarded the discourse I had previously prepared and substituted the following discussion in which I argue that there is something grievously wrong with those delusional windbags who foment, precipitate, and finance large-scale wars to emasculate and bankrupt nations and thereby force them into a one-world government. Shame on the lot of them!

    Junahu is nothing if not filthy. That said, let me continue. What he doesn’t realize is that he frequently progresses into displays of authority he doesn’t have. Or, to express that sentiment without all of the emotionally charged lingo, this is preeminently the time to speak the truth, the whole truth, frankly and boldly. Let me therefore state that what Junahu is doing is not an innocent, recreational sort of thing. It is a criminal activity, it is an immoral activity, it is a socially destructive activity, and it is a profoundly insensitive activity. I’d like to end this post with a message for Junahu. I’d like to say with emphasis and distinctness—not as a threat, but as a warning—that I will do whatever it takes to place a high value on honor and self-respect, and I won’t let him stop me from achieving that goal.

  32. lol complaint generator.

  33. My favourite bit:

    “Let me therefore state that what Junahu is doing is not an innocent, recreational sort of thing. It is a criminal activity, it is an immoral activity, it is a socially destructive activity, and it is a profoundly insensitive activity.”

    Making movesets the wrong way is PROFOUNDLY insensitive. 😉

  34. 6_6 I am an insensitive man. And my barbs are sending MYM to hell in a handbasket.

  35. […] Move movesets not by yourself and why? ¬_¬ I could just point you to [these] [four] [articles] [here]. But that’d be hella lazy. I’m particularly fond of Tirkaro’s MYM6-MYM7 work, […]


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