Posted by: masterwarlord | November 7, 2011

Khold, MW, Khold, David, Khold, David, Khold, and Character Bias

This article is largely getting made because of the topic of the ponies getting brought back from the dead because of all the talk of this scandal, and I’m largely just getting hand waved off when I bring up my reasoning for Rainbow Dash with dismissal of character bias because I happen to not like any of the three mainstream ponies (Octavia being the third), a crime against humanity. These accusations largely come from Khold and David, the single two MYMers with the most character bias in their voting habits out of the entirety of MYM. When I flip the character bias argument around, obviously I’m not including the entirety of everybody who voted for the two ponies, as there are many, many people who didn’t like the characters who voted for them. I largely turn the argument back the other way because of the two people who keep bringing it up over and over.

I don’t think you want me to go into an essay about why I hate the three movesets in question, as this should be common knowledge by now – but I should address RD specifically considering how I shot myself in the foot with letting people just say lolBurter. Bringing up Burter was probably a mistake considering how wildly popular the sets are, yes, but I don’t believe RD flows as a momentum character at any level because of her running to pelt foes with rain from clouds and smooshing them to hide like a pussy and stand in one place, regardless of whether others exist. For everything I said about Wolf Man and Boom Boom, at least they flow into momentum playstyles. Camping, the dreaded camping everybody will never cease about how terrible it is and how everything must be hyper offensive 20 hit combos, is what makes Rainbow Dash so much more “FUN”. Yes, I went rather off-topic there, but I needed to get Burter bias out of the way. Instead, let’s talk about another character.

I fucking hate this  character with every fiber of my being. The only reason he manages to get people to like him is because he’s around for such a stupidly long period of time, and he still barely manages to develop over the course of the series. Aside from the character not even being intentionally made that much of a pussy later on, he eats up so much screen time that could be spent on potentially worthwhile characters it’s ridiculous – all the dreaded filler can often be pinned on this character. In the original DB (Which has no villains for 99% of it and stars 8 year olds), he gets to actually do things, which is why they felt such a need to bring the stupid character back and give him screen time in DBZ. To top it off, even after how much the character fucked up everything whenever he came on camera, he somehow is one of the few to get a half decent ending. Jesus Christ.

His moveset was made by –Junahu- and he insulted my collection of DBZ sets for a while, but I didn’t care. I still ranked him at an overly high 7 stars and voted for him, regardless of utterly despising the character.

Now, let’s talk about David’s character bias first, considering Khold’s needs no introduction. David is a guy who likes extremely over the top cartoony characters, and will stop at nothing to get them movesets, doing actual serious consideration to get movesets made for characters like bloody –Dan Backslide-. When somebody else makes a moveset for a similar character he likes and is overly hard to do, David gives them tons and tons of pity based off the character. The examples I’m going to talk about here are Wolf Man, who we’re well familiar with, and a moveset that a good chunk of Rainbow Dash supporters shit upon, Edgar.

David was utterly disturbed when I put Edgar at the top of 6 star and that I wasn’t super voting him, and it was one of his absolute favorite sets just because of how difficult it was to do a moveset for Edgar. All he did was prone abuse, nothing fancy, but Kupa milked every last ounce out of the character, apparently. So because Edgar can’t do anything, it should be rewarded because it’s the best Kupa could come up with for Edgar? As Khold would say, there are some movesets which just can’t be competently made while being in-character, particularly all of these characters that Dave likes which never fight. Pity to Wolf Man and Edgar is one thing, but claiming you’ll super vote them entirely out of it? Yes, David has gone on record saying he’ll SV Wolf Man, when momentum is the single easiest playstyle to slap onto any character. Wolf Man in particular had plenty of room open for interpretation – I actually thought Pussycat and Wolf Man were some of the easier ones because of this, but David won’t shut up about how difficult it is to make a moveset for Wolf Man and only talks about his excellent characterization throughout the obnoxiously positive comment. But then again, there are people among us who liked Goomba even though I can think of 10 things to immediately do with it off the top of my head, so character pity is justified, right?

David couldn’t understand JJJ’s f-air and thought papers came out of his suitcase whenever he used it instead of him being able to store things inside it, and generally attacked the moveset for being difficult to understand. But the final verdict? An excellent job for the character I was given. I’ve since told him what some of the moves in question do and added more [collapse] tags with explanation, but his comment before these things stand – David needs no introduction for the single character he has the most bias for. Clearly it was better than Gangreen Gang.

Khold is also unsurprisingly a fan of this set – not that he’d ever actually comment it (He can’t comment anything to save his life, primarily because he doesn’t read them), as that’d require him going remotely in-depth about it and require him to read it, or at least parrot other comments off in such a way to pretend he read it. When Khold went over JJJ in the Audio Recap, he couldn’t be assed to mention JJJ’s playstyle of provoking attacks from the foe that he can take pictures of that’s hammered into the reader’s head every single move. Look, there’s a black guy in utilt! How does he use a black guy for his utilt?!? Wait, you mean he doesn’t use the black guy in his utilt? It’s almost as if I never read this moveset! I have Smady (Lololol), but more importantly Geto and KK as witnesses.

You like the character and it’s in-character. I don’t see how the first part is particularly relevant, but check. Lastly, the moveset is FUN. I don’t think I’ve ever seen such a generic statement about why you could like a moveset, or that we could measure fun in units when we can’t even play the damn movesets.

Not pictured: That's not even me as Guldo, it's FA.

Yes, Rainbow Dash was indeed one of the advertisements (The others being –Redead- by Majora, one of the many movesets he spammed out during Majora week, and Two-Face) so that already pins character bias down. But let’s look at his actual ad, the only place he actually puts anything down about why he likes Rainbow Dash.

Firstly, notice the massive amount of redundancy to make the comment look longer than it is so Khold can try to pretend he has any idea what he’s talking about. There’s the fun thing, again, and he still won’t say why it’s so fun. The most direct statement we can get Khold to commit to on the moveset after all I’ve prodded him is that he likes the interactions with the clouds in this advertisement. The clouds which encourage Rainbow Dash to be a campy cowardly little bitch, but that’s neither here or there in this argument.

I could end it here, but another example of Khold’s character bias is his failure to have –ever- disliked any of the Magic the Gathering sets, no matter the MYMer or how far the series has been spread out. When one things of MTG sets, they think of LoL’s movesets 99% of the time, and yes, there are plenty of reasons and people who like those movesets. But when I said every moveset, I mean –EVERY- moveset, including Jace and Gatstaf Howler. Specifically when we went over Gatstaf in the audio recap (The same one mentioned earlier), I told Khold about the Side Special in wolf form. He “couldn’t remember it” and went to look at it, and found no problems with it. The Side Special where the card that does nothing but transform from man to wolf gains iguana style camouflage and blends in with sheep, encouraging him to be an overgrown baby of a coward. I let Khold talk about the moveset since he’d “read it” and he hadn’t gotten to talk about many movesets, and he proceeded to establish how Howler worked in the card game by flipping over the card, and then did nothing but talk about the card game in general. Again, same witnesses – KK, Geto, Smady. Does this sound like somebody who reads movesets? I reference this skype session with him because he’s far more vulnerable there when he doesn’t have a computer screen to hide behind to properly troll. I have more stories to tell, but it’s not like he’s stupid enough to have an audience -every- time he acts as the single biggest hippo in MYM.

Of course, this all gets debunked if Khold starts commenting, right? Well, if he actually comments just to try to prove that he reads sets, you people should know what to look for. Recapping sets you haven’t read should have familiarized all of you with what it’s like to parrot the comment of another. If he has a breakthrough and says something somebody hasn’t already said (And actually can explain why the fuck he feels that way), then more power to him – don’t expect him to legitimately read any more sets than he has to.

Disclaimers: No, I’m not throwing David under the bus with Khold. This was largely just brought up as a counter to me being accused of character bias, as the sheer hypocrisy is what drove me to finally make an article like this. By association, no, I’m not throwing Edgar under the bus either, I’m just saying Dave’s sheer fanaticism over it was rather odd and that he had little justification to rank it at the absolute top. And of course, MW would never throw one of his own sets under the bus in JJJ, but when I finally have character bias (After Barbovor got raped by it from Khold) in my favor you fucking bet I’m going to point it out.

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Responses

  1. Yes, MT, I know you clicked yes without reading my article. I link it in xat, you’re only one to say anything about it, I refresh, one more vote. All in 60 seconds. It’s convenient when you’re not the one being trolled, isn’t it?

  2. While I’m not one for direct bashing of specific people, this does bring up some good points about how much weight “character” is given in a moveset. And not just characterization of the set itself, but difficulty of making the character in question (and it’s not just Khold/Dave who do this, as I know the ease of making a moveset for the character is something that MW holds against Gengar, though he’s rational enough not to let it effect his opinion on the set’s quality). Honestly, if we’re not going to judge a set on the quality of the work done in it but instead on the choice of character itself, then what are we even doing here?

  3. Man, Gengar was a much harder character to design for than Wolf Man.

    “Honestly, if we’re not going to judge a set on the quality of the work done in it but instead on the choice of character itself, then what are we even doing here?”

    Here, let me be Khold for a minute:

    The obvious answer is “whatever the hell we want.” If I want to play down the competitive side of the contest to emphasize a more Katapultar-like vision of MYM as just fun n’ games, who are you to tell me I’m wrong? And who is Warlord to write this beastly article criticizing me for looking for something else in a moveset? If I want fun and characters that interest me, I’ll damn well vote for them and if you don’t like it nobody’s forcing you to vote that way yourself. And he has absolutely no way to justify this accusation that I don’t read anything at all. I could make Warlordian comments if I remotely wanted to.

  4. I didn’t even vote on the poll to be honest.

  5. Bloody hell, forgot to sign in.

  6. Whatever the hell we want in a moveset =/= character moveset was written for. He admits to large amounts of character bias. Khold cannot defend his opinions on sets when prompted to, regardless of however many chances he’s had. RD is used because of how often it comes up. He has absolutely no way to justify this accusation that he reads anything at all.

    When you comment, Rool, you don’t make “Warlordian comments”, but you can competently come up with why you like or dislike something a good chunk of the time. Making your opinion on something clear is Warlordian now? Khold cannot come up with -any- reasoning why he likes and dislikes movesets.

  7. Oh hell naw guys! You brought Darth Meanie in here, and he’s got some CONTROVERSIAL THINGS to say!

    First of all, this is a well-put-together, well reasoned article. You make your points effectively, and have direct evidence to support your conclusions. Well done on that regard.

    Looking over the examples you’ve made, it’s pretty clear that you yourself Warlord put no consideration for character bias into your decisions for what makes a moveset good or not, and focus entirely on the uniqueness and originality of the playstyle. But Warlord, not everyone sees Make Your Move as a laboratory to make increasingly complicated and intricate playstyles. In fact I’d say that most people came here because they wanted to give characters they liked a cool moveset.

    I’m going to overlook the arguments about whether Khold is reading movesets or not because that’s really a side issue that doesn’t get to the heart of the matter. I’d like to see him and everyone else commenting more and more (I’d love to see Khold buckle down and make a serious attempt at leadership, his movesetting has what it takes), but that’s a separate issue to what Warlord’s really upset about, character bias.

    Ultimately this is a clash of perspectives.From my understanding, to Warlord the moveset is simply a vehicle for the playstyle. How creative and well-thought out the moveset is is the primary judgement of a moveset. Being in-character is important as well, but it doesn’t matter if it’s a moveset for Mario, Cloud Strife, or Barney the Dinosaur, they’re all going to be judged on their merits as a playstyle. Now then, I have my own share of criticisms with how Warlord judges playstyle; his love of overspecialized moves and his need to be babied and spoonfed the playstyle, but that’s also not the main point.

    Warlord shrugged off my comment on Hammerhead; for good reason, as I was far too charged up when I wrote it, because the comment refused to go into detail on what matters to him the most, the execution of the playstyle he’d created. And yes, I do admit that his use of smashing enemies through the stage is different than Guldo or whoever and that you did have a unique approach to it, but for me, it didn’t really matter anymore because I was so turned off by how you approached the character and the system of Brawl through his Specials and Grab that I wouldn’t like it regardless of the playstyle. I’m considering making a second comment to address those issues that Warlord specifically cares about because I know that what I said about character really doesn’t matter to him at all, and I’d like to give him some commentary that he’d actually appreciate.

    Essentially though, what this article does is make a declaration that Warlord’s method of judging the merits of a moveset are the only proper ones to have. When people vote for characters that they like, they’re being biased. When people vote for a moveset that they think does an excellent job with what the character provided to work with, they’re being biased. And, god forbid, if someone looks at a moveset and says that it would be ‘FUN’ to play as, they’re being ridiculous. Seriously, how could someone use such a subjective measurement to grade something as subjective as a moveset? Whose idea was it that fighting games are supposed to be fun at all?

    We ran away from character bias way back in the olden days because once upon a time movesets were getting good rankings in the Top 50 solely out of their choice of character, regardless of how well the moveset was written. We can all agree that we don’t want to see that happen again, but I don’t think that any of us are going to judge a moveset that way anymore, so why does the phrase still exist? Character choice is the most important aspect of making a moveset; it sets the tone, the style, the moves, the playstyle, everything about a moveset. Why should it get a free pass out of the ultimate judgment?

    I think that while I do love to see interesting and well-designed playstyles, that how fun a moveset is to play as is a viable element to judge a moveset off of. I like Wesker in Marvel vs Capcom 3 not only because he has a pretty unique playstyle and insane reset game, but because he’s a smooth, seriously fun character to play as. His attacks all feel good to land, and it makes the player feel like a badass. His character is well and thoroughly established through the set and it makes it better. Granted, we can only do this through writing in movesets, but isn’t writing style a criteria anyways?

    I’m not going to try to invalidate your priorities Warlord; they’re your opinion and it would be intellectually dishonest of me to make this long statement about why people should be free to like movesets for their own reasons and then deny you yours. But you are not the sole judge of Make Your Move, Warlord. (well, until the Top 50 rolls around and you steamroll the friendliest leadership you’ve ever had into making whatever changes you like).

    As a final aside, what do you mean, ‘momentum is the easiest playstyle to make?’ Not only is the idea of momentum as a playstyle as you’ve used it so ludicrously broad it encompasses practically everything (Snake would easily qualify with his Mortar Slide as a momentum mechanic) but we’ve barely scratched the surface of what Brawl has to offer there. Momentum as the easiest playstyle to make poorly? Maybe, but I think that camping or trap characters would be more likely to make that claim. Momentum in Make Your Move seems to be essentially (characters who tend continue to move while they attack), a baseline concept in every single set actually in Brawl, necessary for anything close to serious play, and yet we treat it like it’s some sort of special genre of set, which Warlord claims was finished with ‘Burter’. I know you’re still upset that people didn’t like Burter Warlord. Maybe if you’d chose a better character? (HIPPO)

  8. Can’t write a detailed response ATM, but the SVing Wolf Man thing was a failed trolling attempt that you somehow take seriously. (tipsy)

  9. Wolf Man is game to you? How about I take your little board and SMASH?!

  10. Okay Warlord, I actually can like a set before I even read it. If it’s for a character I like, I will always like it until something in the set gives me a reason not to. That’s why in the recap I said I liked sets without even reading them.

    And also, just because we share different views on movesets (i.e. I like sets based off of character first) doesn’t mean that my view is wrong. And I have read every set I voted for in MYMX. You seem to think otherwise.

  11. That was all a load of reading I could have better spent reading actual movesets, or eating cheesecake.

    Nothing wrong with Rainbow Dash using momentum in conjunction with camping. Actually, the contradictions between the two are what give the set such a distinctive feel in the first place. The “Momentum” in Rainbow Dash isn’t meant to force her to build up speed, it’s there to encourage the player to zip about as her.
    And yes, Rainbow Dash is fun. More or less everyone who likes her knows this. You want objective reasoning of what “fun” is? You would never accept the answer, because it involves getting you to admit that there is satisfaction in landing a Falcon Punch. Fun is to be found in what you GIVE to the player, not with what you EXPECT of them.

  12. I could say the same with most of your articles.

    I don’t see a correlation between Falcon Punch and camping, but okay then. I just find it hilarious that this magical arcane word has been brought up almost exclusively for this moveset and this moveset only, and it comes off as parroting in Khold’s case.

    This article wasn’t supposed to be about Khold’s “views” that align with yours. These views are simply the easiest to pass off while claiming to have read the moveset, as the least substance and justification is needed in commentry. That and lord knows it’s hard to get a rise out of -you- if he turned the trolling around.

    The vast majority of the time, though, it’s not even about your views, Junahu. It’s entirely about what character was posted at the start, regardless of anything that comes after.

    ***

    Also yet another discovery made by this voting scandal to fuel flames of this article: David SV’d Spiderman.

  13. BAWWWWWWWWWWWW, STOP LIKING MOVESETS THAT I DON’T YOU GUYS

  14. So much for your respecting the case I presented. Are you trying to make it look like I edited your comment or something?

  15. Essentially, DM. That’s what it boils down to.

  16. Dave has a right to his biases. One of the big things Mendez based his appreciation of a moveset on was character choice. If he wanted to see it in Brawl, then naturally he’ll be more content with the moveset. If he didn’t give a fig one way or the other, impressing him is going to be more of an uphill battle for the writer. That’s basic human psychology. We’ve sort of pretended it doesn’t exist in MYM for a long time.

    As for me, the reason I don’t have character biases is because there’s nobody I want to see in Brawl. I don’t care about any characters. I’m, like, a Brawl nihilist.

  17. Yes, dismiss my evidence for you not reading movesets as me attacking your “opinion” of aligning with Junahu and as attacking his philosophies. I never said that Junahu didn’t read movesets, now did I? This is just you dismissing my disliking the ponies as character bias again.

    ***

    Character bias having a history of being around isn’t exactly a reason we should let it continue, Rool.

  18. I’m not talking about history, but psychology. Unless you plan to perform a lobotomy on everybody in MYM? In which case I’m sure you’ll do all kinds of mean things when you get to my brain and this issue is the last of my worries.

    And stop using those obnoxious little “***”s. (DHAT)

  19. It influencing your initial impressions as you start is largely unavoidable, yes. It’s a matter of you holding it against the character after you’re done reading, or, hell, makes you refuse to read, that we obviously need to avoid.

  20. My BAAWWWWWW was in response to the ludicrosity that David Super Voting Spider-Man apparently constitutes bias. It’s a set with plenty of merit to it, one that had a lot of good material, so saying that someone super voting it must mean bias is either paranoia or a complete inability to accept a different opinion.

    It seems that to Warlord, there’s a pool of about a dozen or so ‘Super Vote-able’ movesets, and there’s something wrong with your vote list if anythig else is included in there.

  21. I voted Spider Man. Nothing against it. It just seems a bit convenient for him. Two ponies, Edgar, Pennywise, AND Spider Man. . .

    I was just throwing it out there because I wasn’t aware when I wrote the article. As the disclaimer says, I really don’t hold much against Dave here. I only brought him up because of his accusations against me. The original intention of this article was as a defense, but it’s hard to not make an attack with Khold involved.

  22. Well, I haven’t been in the chat so I don’t know what you’ve been accused of, but if it’s any consolation I’ve never once suspected you of so-called character bias positive or negative. Hell, you SV’d Subaru.

  23. I do recall making a Pyro moveset in MYMX. Khold got into such a fit about it that he told me he would consider making a new Pyro set because he got so offended from THAT set.

    From PC’s pdf, I only saw one user who WV’d the Pyro set. Only one. I don’t recall if there were any Khold sets on there but I can pretty much guarantee at this point there weren’t.

  24. “Lastly, the moveset is FUN. I don’t think I’ve ever seen such a generic statement about why you could like a moveset, or that we could measure fun in units when we can’t even play the damn movesets.”

    • Is that the best you had available to quote? Yes, thank you for bringing that up again. “Fun” is one of the most subjective things that varies for person to person, and using that as your primary reasoning is an absurdly weak argument. The worst quote of the three most recent is me declaring a Kupa set the best of its time a long, long time ago when there was nothing else to call his best.

      Also, you’re still here? I thought this was just your high school thing. Can I help you, or do we actually have to move to the Stadium?


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