Posted by: Junahu | December 12, 2012

Discussion Roundtable: Movements

Hello! In Discussion Roundtables, we discuss amongst ourselves various topics that impact on the culture and direction of MakeYourMove. This 2 hour log shows the entire text chat we had, so while it may be an intimidating read, we highly recommend you read through it to see where everyone stands on today’s topic, along with possible directions and ideas that can be adopted/reintroduced.

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12/12/12 (GMT) “Movements”

[12:06:46 AM] Junahu: Today we’re kicking off the discussion on Movements, and their role in modern MYMing
[12:07:25 AM] Junahu: more particularly, whether they’re worth having, and possibly even what they can be replaced with (alternatives, etc)
[12:08:15 AM] Agidius: May as well define what the dickery do qualifies as a movement while we’re at it
[12:08:56 AM] MasterWarlord: The negatives of movements consist of people doing sets they don’t want to do, prohibiting them from getting to actual sets sooner that would probably be better anyway, and sandwiching a lot of set activity at once to make set blocks awkward to comment around
[12:09:30 AM] MasterWarlord: minimum 2 people, 3 sets
[12:09:34 AM] MasterWarlord: @movement definition
[12:09:38 AM] Phatcat: If we’re going to decide on what a movement is…Well, wasn’t there some distinction between movements and something else?
[12:09:49 AM] MarthTrinity: And then of course you have the organization problems of movements where one person slacks off, doesn’t get their stuff does and throws off the whole thing.
[12:09:55 AM] Phatcat: I thought a movement was supposed to be “everyone does a set of their own accord in relation to a set theme”
[12:10:10 AM] Phatcat: Nowadays it seems like people are getting together and discussing who should make what
[12:10:49 AM] Junahu: Movements are a sort of shared project, wherin two or more people set out to create MYM content (invariably movesets) that fit within a highly specified theme, game of origin, etc.
[12:11:23 AM] Junahu: their posting is almost always synchronised, so that a lot of movesets of a similar theme are posted in a short timeframe
[12:11:59 AM] Junahu: (some movements, such as the Punch Out Movement have not been posted all-at-once)
[12:12:44 AM] MasterWarlord: movements that do not have to be posted all at once are a lot better for MYM’s well being
[12:13:02 AM] Junahu: that is very agreeable. More openly scheduled movements are more inviting
[12:13:23 AM] MarthTrinity: We’ve had some good examples of really bad movements this contest, should we discuss what exactly made them flop so hard?
[12:13:42 AM] Agidius: TF2, Illbleed, was there another one I missed
[12:13:59 AM] MarthTrinity: TF2 is a pretty prime example of everything that can go wrong with a movement.
[12:14:06 AM] Phatcat: I think it was, in part, due to the fact that they make the whole “MYM is a job” thing even more pronounced
[12:14:22 AM] MarthTrinity: For example, you had many of the sets that -weren’t- even close to ready on the planned on date.
[12:14:32 AM] MarthTrinity: Meaning a massive chunk of the content was missing
[12:14:46 AM] MarthTrinity: Furthermore, you had a bunch of people who had NO knowledge or interest in TF2 participating.
[12:14:56 AM] Junahu: a lot of Movements are pretty inflexible.
[12:16:00 AM] Junahu: most are created with a number of characters that “need” to be covered, which puts a lot of pressure on MYMers to create movesets they probably don’t even want to
[12:16:34 AM] Phatcat: I do agree with Junahu there, movement force people into making sets they don’t want to make
[12:16:49 AM] Phatcat: I think MW said that before, it’s pretty obvious, but it’s still there
[12:17:12 AM] MasterWarlord: Clearly we ban people from joining movements if they don’t know the character
[12:17:14 AM] MasterWarlord: Because we can do that
[12:17:19 AM] Phatcat: Like, with this Illbleed movement, MW said just a moment again that he had another set that he didn’t plan to do pushed on him just a few days ago
[12:17:22 AM] Phatcat: Because nobody else would do it
[12:17:59 AM] Junahu: it’s the pressure of making something that is complete
[12:18:14 AM] Agidius: You should probably see about getting Smady in here Warlord if he exists at all
[12:18:30 AM] Agidius: or FA
[12:18:35 AM] MarthTrinity: This goes back to my opinion on movesetting as well.
[12:18:50 AM] MarthTrinity: If you don’t like a character or whatever or aren’t knowledgeable about them, why are you making a moveset for them?
[12:19:12 AM] MarthTrinity: I just don’t see the point of being part of a movement when you have no attachment to the series/characters
[12:19:14 AM] MasterWarlord: Smady will probably go on about you being fags and about you hating on his movement
[12:19:20 AM] MasterWarlord: I will invite him regardless
[12:20:13 AM] Phatcat: Is FA even alive?
[12:20:19 AM] Junahu: We seem to be reaching a similar frame of mind regarding the need for freedom and flexibility within a movement. But going too far in that direction has pretty big flaws too.
[12:20:46 AM] Phatcat: brb
[12:20:50 AM] Phatcat: Won’t take long
[12:20:58 AM] Junahu: A movement that is just “here’s a theme, post something whenever” can be very directionless
[12:20:59 AM] MasterWarlord: FA is not here atm, no
[12:21:21 AM] Agidius: I’m asking for Smady particularly because he will probably hate this discussion’s mere existence.
[12:21:31 AM] MasterWarlord: Smady agreed to join convo
[12:21:39 AM] Agidius: well there we have it
[12:21:45 AM] *** MasterWarlord added SmashDaddy ***
[12:22:50 AM] Agidius: but heyo Smady
[12:22:57 AM] SmashDaddy: Hi
[12:23:52 AM] Agidius: so yeah, the topic is just the role of the movement in today’s MYM culture or something
[12:25:00 AM] Junahu: how about we discuss the Punch Out movement? I think it’s a great example of how this part of our culture really took off.
[12:25:28 AM] Agidius: right, but that kind of started for a different reason, didn’t it?
[12:25:35 AM] Agidius: Just to lower the amount of… gimmickiness
[12:25:49 AM] Phatcat: So it was a movement with an actual…moveset theme?
[12:25:51 AM] SmashDaddy: No, it began quite plainly as watching videos in the chat
[12:25:53 AM] Phatcat: Not just a character theme?
[12:26:07 AM] Junahu: the inception of the movement went a long way towards inspiring the MYMers to follow through with it
[12:26:16 AM] Junahu: and the staggered posting of the movesets proved that the movement had bite to it, inspiring others to finish, or even start, making their own
[12:26:26 AM] SmashDaddy: Over time it evolved into a movement, and eventually was engulfed by a greater idea of simplification
[12:26:40 AM] Phatcat: Suppose that’s a good idea, though it’s clearly putting a limiter on the movement
[12:26:52 AM] MasterWarlord: Well the PO movement wasn’t just for the characters. It was trying to prove some actual gameplay point, at the time.
[12:27:10 AM] SmashDaddy: Punch-Out!! from my memory, didn’t have any outward philosophical ramifications at the time, it was just a bit of fun.
[12:27:16 AM] Phatcat: Instead of making a date that everyone has to meet, but barely anyone will?
[12:27:44 AM] Phatcat: It just seems that MYM doesn’t work very well with deadlines, or at least most MYMers don’t
[12:28:01 AM] Junahu: we’re free spirited 😀
[12:28:13 AM] MasterWarlord: Well even if most people in the movement do there will be one who won’t
[12:28:29 AM] MasterWarlord: And TF2 movement is what happens when you just don’t give a fuck and force the deadline.
[12:29:01 AM] SmashDaddy: At the time of PO!!, the idea of a deadline in a movement simply wasn’t approached because Little Mac was already out, for one.
[12:29:05 AM] MarthTrinity: Ponies was an example of a last minute movement.
[12:29:11 AM] SmashDaddy: For two the idea of what made a movement was very different.
[12:29:17 AM] MarthTrinity: As we literally asked Junahu about a day or so before it was due to make Fluttershy
[12:29:33 AM] Junahu: it’s true, I lived the experience
[12:29:48 AM] Junahu: I take deadlines seriously, if nothing else
[12:30:27 AM] SmashDaddy: We only really started having deadlines around MYM9
[12:30:42 AM] SmashDaddy: Because of multiple different movements going on
[12:30:59 AM] Junahu: [random, selfish shoutout to Joe Calzaghe, who was directly inspired by the punch out movement]
[12:31:46 AM] Junahu: [sort of a counter-culture reaction to the idea of movements]
[12:31:57 AM] SmashDaddy: Twice random as selfish
[12:31:59 AM] Junahu: [sorry, please continue6_6]
[12:32:23 AM] SmashDaddy: Deadlines are a safer approach to movements. They allow for more control.
[12:32:39 AM] SmashDaddy: But there are a wide array of factors.
[12:32:57 AM] Junahu: Then how those deadlines are determined, policed and guided are important
[12:33:01 AM] SmashDaddy: Not saying I prefer deadlines over the old-fashioned style of movements, it’s nostalgic.
[12:33:07 AM] SmashDaddy: Yes that is very important.
[12:33:26 AM] Phatcat: Old-fashioned or not, it seemed to work better
[12:33:48 AM] Junahu: there is typically a “movement leader”, who is responsible on some level to get MYMers to complete their works within the timeframe asked of them.
[12:33:54 AM] MarthTrinity: Movements in general have way too much room for failure as you’re depending upon others to be as dedicated to it as you are (or just as not commited as you are, depending on the case).
[12:34:01 AM] SmashDaddy: Well, maybe if people read this roundtable they’ll consider trying the old type of movement.
[12:34:13 AM] MarthTrinity: I mean, OC movement had no set deadline as far as I can remember.
[12:34:23 AM] MarthTrinity: And that sort of fell through due to lack of motivation.
[12:34:36 AM] Junahu: OC movement had the unfortunate quality of being almost entirely unmanaged
[12:34:50 AM] Junahu: no incentive, no carrot or stick
[12:34:50 AM] MasterWarlord: well, again, Punch Out Movement.
[12:34:58 AM] MasterWarlord: You generally wanted to post it in a close vicinity to the other sets.
[12:35:06 AM] MasterWarlord: Remember when Kupa goes and post those out of place last sets
[12:35:09 AM] MasterWarlord: people laugh at him
[12:35:24 AM] SmashDaddy: I said it was safer, and that goes for everyone
[12:35:27 AM] MarthTrinity: I thought it was because they were generally regarded as poor quality.
[12:35:39 AM] SmashDaddy: Even if you post a bad set in the movement, if it’s all on a single date, you’re less likely to be singled out
[12:35:42 AM] MasterWarlord: That helped.
[12:35:54 AM] MarthTrinity: THEN AGAIN. . .
[12:35:59 AM] Phatcat: I don’t think we need to be worried about that, Smady
[12:36:00 AM] Junahu: THEN AGAIN indeed
[12:36:15 AM] Junahu: *sideways glance at Cap’n Bowser*
[12:36:21 AM] MasterWarlord: But I just remember you and me talking MT. Macho Man shows up at Midnight. Aran Ryan just shows 5 days later and finds a wreck.
[12:36:27 AM] MasterWarlord: To the PO party.
[12:36:29 AM] MasterWarlord: fantastic.
[12:36:40 AM] MarthTrinity: If you DON’T post a bad moveset in a movement and just don’t post the moveset, you’re throwing off the whole dynamics
[12:36:41 AM] Phatcat: If someone posts an…objectively bad moveset, that’s their own fault
[12:37:05 AM] MarthTrinity: It comes across as sloppy. I mean, we had Rainbow Dash, Pinkie Pie, Twilight Sparkle and Fluttershy all done more or less.
[12:37:07 AM] Phatcat: Could be due either to getting the set forced on them at the last minute, or just procrastination on their part
[12:37:09 AM] SmashDaddy: That’s also part of the thing with the deadline style. If you post a bad moveset, it’s better than posting no moveset.
[12:37:30 AM] MarthTrinity: But because no Applejack and Rarity, it just came across as sloppy
[12:37:33 AM] SmashDaddy: Socially I mean. That’s an incentive for the set maker and a safeguard for the movement leader talked about previously to place blame.
[12:37:49 AM] SmashDaddy: That’s why you also get a lot of rushed movement sets.
[12:38:03 AM] Phatcat: Yes, but it would be better to have a “good” moveset at a bit of a later date, than a bad one pumped out just to meet a deadline
[12:38:04 AM] MarthTrinity: Org XIII worked out well because Peanut cracked down on us and stayed on top of the situation before he died.
[12:38:18 AM] Junahu: ah, that segues deliciously into the Duck Twacy movement
[12:38:31 AM] Junahu: @PC
[12:38:35 AM] MarthTrinity: But I segued into Org XIII 😦
[12:38:42 AM] Junahu: you first then
[12:38:45 AM] Junahu: complainy pants
[12:39:10 AM] MarthTrinity: Well that was an example of a movement turning out right for the most part.
[12:39:21 AM] MarthTrinity: The main problem was, you had way too many people doing multiple sets for it
[12:39:33 AM] MarthTrinity: Which meant their efforts were split across two or three movesets instead of one quality one
[12:39:42 AM] Junahu: for the number of sets involved, Org XIII was mighty impressive
[12:39:49 AM] SmashDaddy: I wasn’t in that movement, but I observed a very long and arduous process of quality assurance, I’d credit that approach to the movement’s success.
[12:40:04 AM] MarthTrinity: Unless you were Peanut in which case you had one really good one and then two that people sorta forget.
[12:40:12 AM] SmashDaddy: Peanut and Smashbot were meticulous in making sure everyone was coming up on-time with their sets.
[12:40:52 AM] SmashDaddy: They also picked out a reliable selection of MYMers to fill the ‘slots.’
[12:41:39 AM] Phatcat: That’s kind of the problem, though
[12:41:42 AM] Phatcat: You shouldn’t really…pick out people for movesets
[12:41:42 AM] Phatcat: I mean, isn’t the point of a movement supposed to be that people volunteer to do them?
[12:41:50 AM] Junahu: the magic number may be 2. One Movement Leader, and a spotter, someone to give support. Though for smaller movements that would probably be death-by-micromanagement
[12:42:07 AM] MarthTrinity: Well, aside from their original choice of MDA for Marluxia. . .
[12:42:25 AM] SmashDaddy: The Peanut-Smashbot team was definitely a large part of Org XIII’s success.
[12:42:57 AM] SmashDaddy: You can encourage someone to volunteer.
[12:43:16 AM] Phatcat: Typically we call that persuading
[12:43:26 AM] MasterWarlord: It has more to do with them being overly loud and bossy people to yell at people. Or rather I would say that
[12:43:28 AM] Phatcat: Or bribing in some cases
[12:43:33 AM] MasterWarlord: But then David is the leader of TF2.
[12:44:11 AM] SmashDaddy: Persuade, encourage, I think that is part and parcel of movements in modern day.
[12:44:23 AM] MarthTrinity: And, as mentioned before, TF2 had some major failings to it. Namely the amount of missing sets and the amount of sets made by people who didn’t really have any investment in TF2
[12:44:47 AM] MarthTrinity: There’s a reason Medic is so bad.
[12:44:48 AM] Phatcat: I think that’s mainly due to a problem with MYM in general, MT
[12:45:01 AM] SmashDaddy: Lets not overly focus negatively on one movement.
[12:45:04 AM] Junahu: the difficult part is generating investment
[12:45:07 AM] Phatcat: People come up with concepts, then look for a somewhat fitting character to slap the concept onto
[12:45:36 AM] Junahu: I think, without the Capture the Flag mode Warlord created, we wouldn’t even have half the participation in the TF2 movement
[12:45:41 AM] Junahu: generating approaches and bouncing ideas off that mode, whilst using a game that habitually lives in CTF already must have been a big help
[12:46:15 AM] Phatcat: Which sometimes works, and sometimes, like with Medic, does not
[12:46:33 AM] SmashDaddy: I don’t think it’s fair to judge movements based on solely the TF2 movement, let alone Medic.
[12:46:34 AM] Phatcat: Well, it’s not. Which I why I said it was a problem with MYM in general, not movements
[12:46:34 AM] MarthTrinity: Nobody is.
[12:46:38 AM] MarthTrinity: But it’s a valid point.
[12:47:04 AM] SmashDaddy: I’d say you’re missing a core element of the TF2 movement.
[12:47:09 AM] MarthTrinity: Movesets aren’t going to be that great if you have a bunch of people who couldn’t care less about the source material.
[12:47:09 AM] SmashDaddy: David took an off-hands approach.
[12:47:17 AM] SmashDaddy: He said, “here’s the deadline, you have so many months.”
[12:47:30 AM] SmashDaddy: It was the polar opposite of how Peanut and Smashbot approached Org XIII
[12:47:32 AM] Agidius: “months” might be part of the problem
[12:47:44 AM] SmashDaddy: Yes, I believe that this was not the best approach.
[12:47:59 AM] Phatcat: I still believe that deadlines themselves can be a problem when it comes to movements
[12:48:14 AM] Phatcat: Especially if it’s MONTHS away, at that point just say “try to have the moveset done in a few months” or something
[12:48:21 AM] Phatcat: There’s not really any reason to give a deadline there
[12:48:43 AM] SmashDaddy: I agree it’s not optimal, but it gives freedom to the set makers.
[12:49:08 AM] SmashDaddy: You still have the bully pulpit of, ‘if you fuck up your ass is grass.’
[12:49:15 AM] Phatcat: Wouldn’t it be more free to have no deadline?
[12:49:20 AM] SmashDaddy: Without the hard knuckle actual bullying.
[12:49:20 AM] Phatcat: And threats don’t work very well in MYM
[12:49:38 AM] SmashDaddy: That was I imagine the idea of the TF2 movement.
[12:49:51 AM] Phatcat: Considering that there isn’t a lot one can do to actually back anything up, except for mean-spirited things like not voting for someone’s sets
[12:49:59 AM] Phatcat: Or maybe blackmail, but I don’t think anyone cares about that.
[12:50:05 AM] SmashDaddy: The deadline was so far away, you basically had all the time in the world.
[12:50:11 AM] SmashDaddy: There’s merit to this approach and it was largely untested.
[12:50:20 AM] Junahu: and segueing into the example of a large movement we can pretty much all agree turned out horribly wrong.. Rool’s Duck Twacy movement
[12:50:32 AM] Phatcat: That was Rool’s movement specifically? I thought there was someone else in there
[12:50:38 AM] Phatcat: As in, running it
[12:50:44 AM] Phatcat: Obviously I know other people made sets
[12:50:45 AM] SmashDaddy: David was the unofficial second movement leader.
[12:51:00 AM] Junahu: From an outsider looking in, it really looked like Rool’s Opus
[12:51:32 AM] SmashDaddy: I would disagree on that.
[12:51:35 AM] Junahu: I doubt it did his ego much good to see blank posts where movesets like Neon Noodle were supposed to go
[12:51:55 AM] MarthTrinity: Man, I can’t even pinpoint what went wrong with Duck Twacy
[12:52:09 AM] Junahu: It didn’t have me in it
[12:52:11 AM] Junahu: clearly
[12:52:12 AM] Agidius: Aside from the character choices?
[12:52:12 AM] SmashDaddy: Punch-Out!! is a good comparison here, I feel
[12:52:15 AM] MarthTrinity: Between the missing movements, the overall lack of interest or the general opinion that most of hte movesets were pretty crap.
[12:52:23 AM] Phatcat: Well….
[12:52:28 AM] SmashDaddy: The idea behind PO!! developed naturally into the philosophical.
[12:52:29 AM] Phatcat: Those are all basically connected by one thing, MT
[12:52:33 AM] Phatcat: Nobody gave a shit about Duck Twacy.
[12:52:44 AM] SmashDaddy: Duck Twacy was too late in its message and too obvious.
[12:52:50 AM] MasterWarlord: MT, you were going on earlier about people doing sets for chars they don’t give a flying fuck about for movements
[12:53:04 AM] MasterWarlord: Only Rool and David liked the random duck twacy chars in the least.
[12:53:11 AM] MarthTrinity: Exactly.
[12:53:15 AM] Junahu: wasn’t it a bizarre experiment into the idea of making something from nothing?
[12:53:24 AM] Junahu: literal one shot characters
[12:53:30 AM] SmashDaddy: Yeah, compare that to PO!!…
[12:53:31 AM] SmashDaddy: We all watched, spammed the videos in the chat.
[12:53:39 AM] SmashDaddy: For weeks we watched them and slowly the movesets rolled out.
[12:53:52 AM] SmashDaddy: There’s little to digest about Duck Twacy, it’s a 2-3 minute cartoon.
[12:54:02 AM] SmashDaddy: It certainly is not as directly applicable to moveset making.
[12:54:14 AM] SmashDaddy: Philosophy first, moveset potential second?
[12:54:46 AM] Junahu: I actually kind of felt bad for posting the  counter-movement “Piggy-Bank” right after Duck Twacy fumbled over itself
[12:55:21 AM] Junahu: like I shot a dog with a gun that shoots slightly scruffier dogs as bullets
[12:55:56 AM] Phatcat: Well that’s an interesting choice of words
[12:56:05 AM] SmashDaddy: I don’t think Rool took it personal.
[12:57:08 AM] Junahu: It didn’t help that the extremely concise CastleVania “movement” was posted that same day
[12:57:52 AM] SmashDaddy: That blurring the line of project and movement is why we’re at this junction.
[12:58:25 AM] Junahu: indeed
[12:58:26 AM] SmashDaddy: CastleVania from the outside would’ve looked like a gambit to anyone considering I was doing one set and you were doing four.
[12:58:49 AM] SmashDaddy: Especially when I hadn’t read any of your entries, it should’ve ended in a disaster.
[12:59:29 AM] Junahu: I think it really helped that we had a shared template to follow
[12:59:51 AM] Junahu: kept things very related, visually at least
[12:59:58 AM] Phatcat: So moveset leaders should make templates, then?
[1:00:16 AM] Phatcat: Or have someone who is in any way talented at that do it
[1:00:21 AM] Junahu: Well, it’s a case of the leader choosing how best to lead
[1:01:01 AM] Junahu: A tighter control over the general way each set is layed out can be a help, or it can just get in the way
[1:02:34 AM] MarthTrinity: We should probably just execute those who fall through in movements.
[1:03:03 AM] Junahu: I think, if possible, movements should begin with a serious talk between all the people participating, to help establish the themes the movement hopes to hit, and to get a feel for how motivated people are.
[1:04:22 AM] Junahu: Since there’s a habit of one person failing to meet quota, a possible solution is for the quicker movesetter to jump in and either joint the remains, or take over before it becomes a critical problem.
[1:05:20 AM] Phatcat: But then you have issues with the leader/quicker person deciding that it’s a problem when the original maker doesn’t believe it is
[1:05:31 AM] Junahu: this falls into the arena of bad communication, where a movesetter isn’t pulling par, but is not even motivated to tell anyone in the movement
[1:05:56 AM] Phatcat: And, again…having meetings and serious discussions, it feels like you’re turning it into something formal; like a job
[1:06:27 AM] Junahu: This is stuff that would likely be chosen by the movement participants themselves
[1:07:10 AM] Junahu: we’re not formalising a ruleset, but exploring alternative structures that can be chosen as an option
[1:07:28 AM] Junahu: it’s usually the movement leader who bears the brunt of this administration stuff
[1:07:35 AM] MasterWarlord: I do suppose actual communication among movement goers is a good idea
[1:07:38 AM] Junahu: and they’re always the most motivated to see it through
[1:07:41 AM] MasterWarlord: a lot of movements nowadays are just
[1:07:48 AM] MasterWarlord: Oh, me and X, we have started this movement
[1:07:56 AM] MasterWarlord: you, you will join, and you will do X by X time.
[1:08:14 AM] MasterWarlord: And that person only even communicates with the leader.
[1:08:55 AM] Junahu: anyone for a short intermission break?
[1:09:22 AM] Phatcat: Well, if you need it, that’s good
[1:09:42 AM] Phatcat: But Agi has to leave for a bit in about half an hour, so we could hold off til then
[1:09:52 AM] Junahu: fair enough
[1:10:10 AM] Junahu: on with the show then
[1:10:59 AM] SmashDaddy: Sorry, my internet died for a minute there
[1:11:06 AM] Agidius: I haven’t even been talking
[1:11:17 AM] Agidius: and when I have, it’s to say something we’re all thinking anyway
[1:11:21 AM] SmashDaddy: I think you have a good point with talking out the movement.
[1:11:37 AM] Phatcat: I suppose communication is good, but I wouldn’t make it into something too formal
[1:11:38 AM] SmashDaddy: That is almost never done.
[1:11:54 AM] SmashDaddy: It doesn’t need to be necessarily formal, it simply needs to happen.
[1:12:19 AM] MasterWarlord: it is more of a job if you just get a token mention from the leader
[1:12:25 AM] MasterWarlord: to do X by X.
[1:12:32 AM] Phatcat: That’s more of an order
[1:12:40 AM] Phatcat: There’s a difference between the two, really
[1:13:00 AM] Phatcat: I’m not saying it’s a bad idea to have the discussion, you just can’t exclude anyone or have people gang up on someone
[1:13:02 AM] MasterWarlord: The person who usually gets this kind of treatment is the last guy/the fill in
[1:13:07 AM] MasterWarlord: this figure is often the person who does not produce
[1:13:09 AM] Phatcat: And if someone disagrees, you…probably should listen to them
[1:13:13 AM] MasterWarlord: for rather obv reasons
[1:14:07 AM] SmashDaddy: It is an easy pitfall. You give out sets, and simply cross your fingers it works out.
[1:14:29 AM] SmashDaddy: In the day of PO!! there wasn’t this sort of problem. Piston Honda and Glass Joe never got made, but no one cared.
[1:15:27 AM] Phatcat: Exactly!
[1:15:34 AM] Phatcat: Thus I’m in the clear (COOL)
[1:15:38 AM] Phatcat: (cool)
[1:15:40 AM] Phatcat: There we go.
[1:15:55 AM] SmashDaddy: Ha ha ha
[1:16:08 AM] Junahu: PO worked because the protagonist, the one singular centerpiece of the concept, was already made. So it didn’t matter how many villains were made, the movement would always have a feeling of completion.
[1:16:43 AM] Phatcat: I’d say that that would mean the leader would need to make the main character, but that could easily force them into making a set they don’t want to make
[1:16:47 AM] Phatcat: so we can’t really use that as a basis
[1:16:48 AM] SmashDaddy: Little Mac was the greatest comparison point ever for a movement.
[1:17:07 AM] SmashDaddy: It was the antithesis of what became the underlying message of PO!!
[1:17:16 AM] Junahu: it’s a great advantage to have something already in the thread as a jumping off point
[1:17:22 AM] MarthTrinity: Which I can’t say I’m very happy about.
[1:17:42 AM] SmashDaddy: It’s years old now, there’s no shame in it at all.
[1:18:01 AM] Junahu: Another historic relic of a movement concept; Pokemon Trainers
[1:18:21 AM] Junahu: 6 pokemon divided amongst different MYMers
[1:18:25 AM] MarthTrinity: And how Steven was the only one that happened? And even then we barely managed to piece it together?
[1:18:58 AM] Junahu: truly? It was only one trainer? My memory must be fuzzy
[1:18:59 AM] SmashDaddy: It’s strange because now movements are almost all in the vein of Steven
[1:19:09 AM] Phatcat: Ah, Pokemon Trainers
[1:19:10 AM] SmashDaddy: They’re not Pokemon Trainer sets but it’s still 5+ movesets all at once.
[1:19:27 AM] SmashDaddy: In MYM5 this was too much but we’ve come to accept this approach.
[1:19:51 AM] Junahu: Pokemon is pretty much the only theme every MYMer at least knows about
[1:19:56 AM] Phatcat: Indeed
[1:20:17 AM] Phatcat: Though whether they want to make a set for a specific Pokemon or not, it’s pretty much the same as whether they want to make any set
[1:20:22 AM] Phatcat: So it’s not really that great of a basis
[1:20:40 AM] SmashDaddy: This is an interesting point of discussion, because I feel that is also part of why movements turned out how they are in the present day.
[1:20:52 AM] SmashDaddy: You simply couldn’t make people read all these sets in a row.
[1:21:00 AM] SmashDaddy: They had to be spaced out for anyone to read them.
[1:21:11 AM] Junahu: ah, the JOE! connundrum
[1:21:19 AM] Junahu: can’t post em all together
[1:21:30 AM] Junahu: no one reads em while they’re apart
[1:21:46 AM] SmashDaddy: This is a challenge in movements and probably why they are compelling.
[1:22:25 AM] SmashDaddy: Org XIII for example, succeeded because of the marvel of 13 sets, the sheer amount was an interesting quirk.
[1:23:03 AM] Junahu: Speaking of lofty goals; the Universal Character Movement (HIPPO)
[1:23:23 AM] Junahu: that movement where the idea was everyone made a moveset for the exact same character..
[1:23:49 AM] Junahu: ..which never went anywhere because a central character could never be agreed on
[1:24:08 AM] Phatcat: I think a movement with a lot of choice and no real “required” entries would be nice, if you’re going to try and revive movements
[1:24:10 AM] Phatcat: Or rather, reboot
[1:24:23 AM] Phatcat: Sadly, I’m Phatcat, so the only thing I can think of would be, like, a Legendary Pokemon movement or something
[1:24:38 AM] MasterWarlord: just a theme would be a good idea, yes
[1:24:42 AM] MasterWarlord: for pogeyman
[1:24:46 AM] Phatcat: And no, Mewtwo isn’t REQUIRED, but somebody would do it anyhow
[1:24:46 AM] MasterWarlord: you could restrict to one type
[1:24:48 AM] MasterWarlord: or do legendaries.
[1:24:54 AM] SmashDaddy: What I’ve learnt over time in movement making is the members want to stand out.
[1:25:11 AM] SmashDaddy: This is why Pokemon and the UCM fail.
[1:25:28 AM] Phatcat: I thought Pokemon was more of the “people forced into sets they don’t want to do”
[1:25:37 AM] Phatcat: Because most of the Pokemon movements attempted have been random sets
[1:25:43 AM] Junahu: that was the Random Pokemon Movement
[1:25:52 AM] Phatcat: Weren’t there two or three of those attempted
[1:25:55 AM] Junahu: it was pretty floptastic
[1:25:59 AM] SmashDaddy: Pokemon seems to have quagmired, if the top fifty is any sign, it’s hard to justify a very interesting idea on a Pokemon compared to an established character.
[1:26:31 AM] Junahu: has the concept of Pokemon stagnated, or do we just need new Pokemon?
[1:26:37 AM] Junahu: oh wait, this is MYM
[1:26:38 AM] Phatcat: You shouldn’t be trying to justify ideas for any character, in my opinion
[1:26:53 AM] Phatcat: I’m against the whole “come up with a concept, find a character for it” ideal
[1:27:19 AM] SmashDaddy: Pokemon just aren’t interesting to MYMers in this day and age
[1:28:43 AM] SmashDaddy: Probably a generalisation, there are of course exceptions
[1:28:51 AM] MasterWarlord: They’re characters with no character who you are held up to a very high standard of perfectly characterizing by the community
[1:29:27 AM] Junahu: I pride myself on being a total asswash in this regard
[1:29:43 AM] SmashDaddy: If only you commented
[1:30:00 AM] Junahu: make more Pokemon for me to bitch at
[1:30:01 AM] Phatcat: Some Pokemon do have character
[1:30:08 AM] Phatcat: Though most do not know it
[1:30:23 AM] SmashDaddy: The people who do religiously comment are the ones who, unsurprisingly, hold the high standards.
[1:30:27 AM] Phatcat: Partially because nobody reads the dex entries or watches the shitty movies
[1:31:37 AM] Junahu: has the discussion drifted to another topic now?
[1:31:53 AM] Junahu: or is there anything more to be explored regarding movements?
[1:32:22 AM] MarthTrinity: In short
[1:32:24 AM] MarthTrinity: Dave should be banned from making movements.
[1:32:28 AM] Junahu: actually! Something I’d like to learn a little more about…
[1:32:41 AM] SmashDaddy: You shall meet your end in the comment section, MT
[1:32:44 AM] Junahu: are movements’ little brothers; joints
[1:33:57 AM] Junahu: they are far more connected in the specifics of making a moveset cooperatively, but are otherwise similar, in a sense, to movements
[1:34:01 AM] MasterWarlord: Yes, yes, Pokedex entries
[1:34:09 AM] MasterWarlord: Waiting in a jungle to devour people is not “character”
[1:34:12 AM] MasterWarlord: That is still feral beast
[1:34:24 AM] MasterWarlord: yes, you can make your moveset one for some monster that waits in a jungle to devour people
[1:34:38 AM] MasterWarlord: but the pokedex descriptions are small and vague enough Mr. Phatcat and Junahu will have a differing interpretation
[1:34:42 AM] MasterWarlord: and be offended
[1:34:50 AM] Junahu: Being a hanging plant who eats prey by using their body as a trap, that is character
[1:36:01 AM] Phatcat: I’m never offended, though
[1:36:10 AM] Phatcat: My sensibilities, now those are a different stories
[1:36:17 AM] SmashDaddy: Joints have largely died because of previews
[1:36:23 AM] Phatcat: Right sensitive little buggers
[1:36:41 AM] Phatcat: A different stories
[1:36:45 AM] Phatcat: 10/10
[1:36:45 AM] Junahu: that’s where movesets are shown privately to others before posting, right?
[1:37:04 AM] SmashDaddy: In the past previewing was practically impossible with the fast turnaround of making a moveset.
[1:37:32 AM] SmashDaddy: Now, it’s a longer process and generally you don’t want to give credit to someone else when you’re doing more work.
[1:38:07 AM] Junahu: I’m not familiar with how the rest of MYM makes joint movesets
[1:38:24 AM] SmashDaddy: They are astoundingly rare.
[1:39:00 AM] SmashDaddy: It’s a loss in my mind.
[1:39:09 AM] *** MasterWarlord added trolltwilightsparkle ***
[1:39:17 AM] Junahu: mayhaps similar problems that plague joints are also affecting movements
[1:39:41 AM] Twilight Sparkle: hi
[1:39:51 AM] Twilight Sparkle: am I wanted in the call
[1:39:51 AM] Twilight Sparkle: or
[1:39:52 AM] Twilight Sparkle: what
[1:39:56 AM] Junahu: communication, lack of investment, lack of interest in the character, etc
[1:40:01 AM] Agidius: there is no call
[1:40:04 AM] Twilight Sparkle: then
[1:40:04 AM] Agidius: there’s this discussion
[1:40:09 AM] Twilight Sparkle: why does it say there’s a call
[1:40:15 AM] Agidius: because PC and I are still in it
[1:40:16 AM] Agidius: talking
[1:40:19 AM] Phatcat: Indeed
[1:40:27 AM] Twilight Sparkle: I see
[1:40:59 AM] Phatcat: But yeah, we’ve been discussing the cure for cancer
[1:41:01 AM] Phatcat: Care to join?
[1:41:07 AM] Junahu: Who is this btw?
[1:41:09 AM] Agidius: Froy
[1:41:10 AM] MasterWarlord: froy
[1:41:10 AM] Phatcat: Froy
[1:41:14 AM] SmashDaddy: Froy
[1:41:14 AM] Agidius: (chew)
[1:41:22 AM] Twilight Sparkle: Froy
[1:41:27 AM] Twilight Sparkle: Twilight Sparkle FROY PARADE
[1:41:44 AM] SmashDaddy: |-(
[1:41:50 AM] Junahu: there, renamed
[1:41:58 AM] FrozenRoy: Really the gay name should have said it all.
[1:42:20 AM] Junahu: Topic is Movements (and Joints)
[1:42:49 AM] FrozenRoy: What about them.
[1:43:01 AM] Phatcat: We’re trying to come up with a way to make movements not terrible
[1:43:06 AM] Phatcat: And…something about joints, too, just started that one
[1:43:10 AM] FrozenRoy: I know how!
[1:43:13 AM] SmashDaddy: I thought we were just having a friendly discussion.
[1:43:13 AM] FrozenRoy: stop doing them
[1:43:16 AM] FrozenRoy: *Ba-dum tish*
[1:43:30 AM] Phatcat: Smady, really
[1:43:34 AM] Phatcat: You should know better
[1:43:41 AM] Phatcat: Has MYM ever had a friendly discussion
[1:43:47 AM] Phatcat: (D)
[1:43:52 AM] FrozenRoy: I have friendly discussions all the time.
[1:44:06 AM] SmashDaddy: It was actually pretty amicable.
[1:44:18 AM] SmashDaddy: I think it should help further the understanding of movements.
[1:44:23 AM] Phatcat: But behind that, bitter resentment toward all
[1:44:36 AM] SmashDaddy: There’s obviously no solution to any ‘problem’ we can find through discussion.
[1:45:03 AM] SmashDaddy: But we can help to teach outsiders about the inside processes of movements.
[1:45:07 AM] MarthTrinity: FROY.
[1:45:10 AM] FrozenRoy: WHAT
[1:45:20 AM] FrozenRoy: THE GOD OF SPARKLES LOOKS UPON THEE WHO CALL OUT HIS NAMES
[1:45:23 AM] FrozenRoy: AND REQUESTS WHAT HE DESIRES
[1:45:28 AM] SmashDaddy: I remember when this was a nice on-topic affair
[1:45:34 AM] MarthTrinity: The screen didn’t scroll down. And I saw everyone saying Froy. So I said Froy.
[1:45:36 AM] Junahu: I don’t
[1:45:44 AM] Agidius: Back in the good ol’ days
[1:45:45 AM] SmashDaddy: I thought I had a bad memory
[1:46:09 AM] Junahu: 2 pages ago? Ancient history
[1:46:13 AM] Phatcat: Well, get it back on topic
[1:46:18 AM] Phatcat: SO JOINTS
[1:46:20 AM] Phatcat: WHAT ABOUT THEM
[1:46:22 AM] Phatcat: NO WEED JOKES
[1:46:38 AM] FrozenRoy: What’s the issue exactly.
[1:46:50 AM] MasterWarlord: I hate them and have always hated them and they were only really that big of a thing before playstyle nazism was a thing so things have to actually be coherent.
[1:46:59 AM] SmashDaddy: No one does joints. That’s the problem, if there is one.
[1:47:13 AM] SmashDaddy: As Warlord says, they aren’t compatible with the modern way movesets are made.
[1:47:22 AM] Junahu: I still don’t know what the process behind one entails
[1:47:58 AM] Junahu: is it an idea bouncing session followed by one person begrudgingly writing the whole thing?
[1:48:41 AM] Junahu: is it a “you take this half, and I’ll do this, and then we’ll sellotape it together somehow” affair?
[1:48:48 AM] SmashDaddy: There are many boundaries to making a joint. You almost need a perfect storm of circumstances for one to happen.
[1:48:57 AM] FrozenRoy: Not really.
[1:49:12 AM] SmashDaddy: Do you both like the character? Do you both like each other? Do you want to make a set right now? Do you agree with my vision for the set?
[1:49:16 AM] FrozenRoy: Unless you want to make a super duper high tech ultra plus joint.
[1:49:22 AM] SmashDaddy: Hey man, let me make my case before you object
[1:49:23 AM] Phatcat: I’m pretty sure I’ve never done a joint
[1:49:28 AM] FrozenRoy: Just bouncing over9000 ideas seems fine too.
[1:49:39 AM] Phatcat: So I don’t much about them
[1:50:11 AM] SmashDaddy: Though to be honest, it’d be disengenuous to say that no joints means no one is previewing sets, taking feeback and otherwise engaging the community.
[1:50:28 AM] SmashDaddy: It’s just that few people, if anyone, want a partner.
[1:51:00 AM] FrozenRoy: The only people I’ve come close to jointing with are Agi and Maj.
[1:51:18 AM] Junahu: it’s a shame because a great partner is a great motivator
[1:51:37 AM] SmashDaddy: I’m sure plenty of people have friends to whom they preview their sets.
[1:51:49 AM] SmashDaddy: It’s a shame if they do not, that is a very handy resource.
[1:52:02 AM] FrozenRoy: There’s not really enough people I’d want to joint with for joints.
[1:53:03 AM] Junahu: I’m pretty stingy in regards to previewing
[1:53:21 AM] Junahu: I’ve done it maybe thrice
[1:53:24 AM] SmashDaddy: I recommend having a preview partner far more than attempting joints.
[1:53:28 AM] Phatcat: I never really have people preview my sets, mostly just the colors
[1:53:33 AM] Phatcat: Did it for my last couple of sets
[1:53:35 AM] FrozenRoy: I preview whoever wants to be previewed.
[1:53:38 AM] Phatcat: those died and never got finished
[1:53:44 AM] FrozenRoy: And preview mostly with FA because I talk to him.
[1:53:45 AM] Phatcat: So yeah, previewing kills sets
[1:53:50 AM] Phatcat: 100% legit I swear
[1:53:57 AM] SmashDaddy: That’s not true for me whatsoever.
[1:54:05 AM] FrozenRoy: Though honestly I’d say previewing helped future sets over the set getting previewed.
[1:54:21 AM] SmashDaddy: Previewing for me is an invaluable process in finalising a moveset.
[1:54:33 AM] Phatcat: Eh, I typically just go with my own ideas
[1:54:38 AM] Phatcat: leave other peoples’ ideas to those people
[1:54:55 AM] MasterWarlord: previewing is not to hear if an idea is good.
[1:54:56 AM] Phatcat: I’d be fine wiht someone proofreading my set, sure
[1:54:58 AM] SmashDaddy: If you need a confidence boost especially, it greatly helps in clarifying what others will think.
[1:54:59 AM] Phatcat: For mistakes
[1:55:00 AM] MasterWarlord: It’s to see if an idea is bad.
[1:55:08 AM] MasterWarlord: not the entirety of the set obv
[1:55:19 AM] Phatcat: I…didn’t say it was one or the other, though
[1:55:40 AM] Phatcat: Just that I’d rather use my own ideas and let other people use theirs
[1:56:05 AM] SmashDaddy: It varies from set to set. Sometimes I know a set is good but want a second opinion, others I just want to know if it’s up to standards.
[1:56:49 AM] SmashDaddy: It’s also a fantastic process to help kink out specific flaws in your set making style.
[1:57:24 AM] Phatcat: Aw, but if I didn’t have my flaws,  I wouldn’t be the phatcat that everyone knows and loves
[1:57:45 AM] Junahu: It’s the age old conflict between identity and acceptance
[1:58:10 AM] Junahu: you want something that’s your own, but you’d also like it to appeal to others
[1:58:13 AM] Phatcat: What about accepting your identity
[1:58:17 AM] FrozenRoy: I
[1:58:24 AM] FrozenRoy: don’t think it’s that complicated.
[1:58:32 AM] FrozenRoy: Some people find previewing helpful
[1:58:33 AM] FrozenRoy: some don’t.
[1:58:42 AM] FrozenRoy: It’s not a big philosophical ponderance.
[1:58:48 AM] SmashDaddy: I’ve never heard of someone finding a preview unhelpful.
[1:58:55 AM] FrozenRoy: Eh.
[1:59:04 AM] FrozenRoy: I’ve had it drain my want to work on a set before.
[1:59:05 AM] SmashDaddy: Even if you don’t agree with their criticism, it gives you one early perspective on your set from an outside source, which is valuable.
[1:59:11 AM] Junahu: ¬_¬ The underlieing reasons why it’s helpful or not are complex and philosphical
[1:59:36 AM] MasterWarlord: and subjective, as anything and everything is.
[1:59:39 AM] MasterWarlord: Roolroolrool
[1:59:40 AM] MasterWarlord: next topic
[1:59:43 AM] MasterWarlord: this is going nowhere.
[1:59:51 AM] FrozenRoy: We have topics?
[1:59:51 AM] Phatcat: Well duh
[2:00:05 AM] Phatcat: It wasn’t meant to, this isn’t really something I want to convince anyone of
[2:00:09 AM] Junahu: we’re still talking about co-operative moveset production, kinda on topic
[2:00:32 AM] MasterWarlord: I was referring to Junahu
[2:00:57 AM] Junahu: ultimately, movements and joints and previewing can be tools for encouraging the social backbone of MYM. When they work.
[2:02:22 AM] Phatcat: One would also think it tends to homogenize the movesets, though
[2:02:36 AM] SmashDaddy: Everyone wants to produce the next phenomenally successful movement.
[2:02:42 AM] FrozenRoy: They do?
[2:02:54 AM] Phatcat: Apparently Smady sure does
[2:03:06 AM] Junahu: well they’re usually driven to create something others read and like
[2:03:21 AM] FrozenRoy: I sort of figured they were mostly done for fun.
[2:03:21 AM] Junahu: so, being crazy popular would indeed be a goal for most
[2:03:28 AM] FrozenRoy: Esp. if you liked the series.
[2:03:40 AM] FrozenRoy: (Alternately sometimes it’s just “THESE HAVE A TON OF POTENTIAL DO STUFF WITH THEM”)
[2:03:41 AM] SmashDaddy: I may have over-exaggerated a bit, but that’s part of why Peanut was intent on getting Org XIII out.
[2:04:02 AM] FrozenRoy: Well, he probably also needed to do that so people actually worked on the sets 😛
[2:04:06 AM] SmashDaddy: People don’t usually make sets because they want them to be unpopular, same goes for movements.
[2:04:20 AM] FrozenRoy: That
[2:04:22 AM] FrozenRoy: that doesn’t.
[2:04:24 AM] FrozenRoy: …I don’t.
[2:04:31 AM] Junahu: if creating movesets is a purely selfish endeavor, then why post them?
[2:04:52 AM] Junahu: at some point you post in MYM to share what you have created
[2:05:07 AM] FrozenRoy: I mostly just like seeing what people think of my stuff, but ultimately care more about if I personally like it, I guess?
[2:05:19 AM] SmashDaddy: There are people who do make sets and not post them.
[2:05:26 AM] SmashDaddy: Phatcat and Koric are two examples.
[2:05:28 AM] Phatcat: brb
[2:06:00 AM] SmashDaddy: If you post a set in the thread, you’re opening yourself up for feedback, even criticism, in doing so, and that is no bad thing.
[2:07:09 AM] Junahu: receiving input from others is a vital part of discovering, developing and applying your own ‘identity’ in your movesets
[2:07:36 AM] FrozenRoy: I get the impression I’m not going to be very helpful today.
[2:08:00 AM] Junahu: you’re sparking discussion regardless
[2:08:38 AM] SmashDaddy: That’s the huge positive of the contest, or just community in general. By comparing your work to other work you can stand out as an individual.
[2:08:39 AM] MasterWarlord: Cue Phatcat comment about how the possibility of putting up a set giving it the possibility of being criticized is a bad thing and how MW, Smady, and FA have killed MYM by negative commentary
[2:09:17 AM] FrozenRoy: Phatcat is brb’d.
[2:10:19 AM] SmashDaddy: I already mentioned how Phatcat doesn’t post multiple completed sets. That is his choice. Posting sets in the thread is the route taken by most.
[2:11:49 AM] SmashDaddy: I’d say it’s rather plain that criticism, as long as it doesn’t fall into genuine negativity, is always good.
[2:13:00 AM] Phatcat: Heh? I’ve been gone
[2:13:52 AM] Phatcat: Reason I don’t post sets I’ve done is cause they’re all out of date
[2:14:05 AM] Phatcat: I work on them for a bit, then stop, then come back months later and do some more
[2:14:15 AM] Phatcat: So they’re way outta sync
[2:14:32 AM] FrozenRoy: I don’t think people really care if they’re out of date.
[2:14:51 AM] SmashDaddy: I enjoyed that Way Back Machine set for Storm, posted by Tanookie
[2:15:04 AM] SmashDaddy: You should just post them already, you’ve got nothing to lose.
[2:15:26 AM] Phatcat: I got everything to lose
[2:15:28 AM] Junahu: except your clothes, your boots, and your motorcycle
[2:15:30 AM] Phatcat: Like my good name
[2:15:33 AM] Phatcat: and my bad name
[2:15:36 AM] FrozenRoy: Phatcat will just open up MYM14
[2:15:39 AM] FrozenRoy: by posting 100 sets.
[2:15:40 AM] MasterWarlord: PC now has a name to keep
[2:15:46 AM] FrozenRoy: The entire contest is just Phatcat.
[2:15:46 AM] Phatcat: Well right now
[2:15:48 AM] Phatcat: I’m PT
[2:15:56 AM] Phatcat: Oh, right
[2:15:59 AM] FrozenRoy: Why are you Pokemon Trainer
[2:16:00 AM] Phatcat: you still have me as faggat
[2:16:04 AM] Phatcat: Or foggot
[2:16:06 AM] Phatcat: Whichever you chose
[2:16:11 AM] Junahu: No, he’s PaTrat
[2:16:15 AM] Agidius: I can see this conversation has somewhat derailed
[2:16:17 AM] MasterWarlord: I put you as Phatcat, actually
[2:16:21 AM] Agidius: whatever, I’m on my way out
[2:16:21 AM] MasterWarlord: because rename feature is a godsend
[2:16:23 AM] Agidius: gonna head home
[2:16:26 AM] MasterWarlord: wally hyde can go fuck himself
[2:16:26 AM] Phatcat: I put myself as Phatthrice
[2:16:27 AM] Phatcat: hippo
[2:16:50 AM] FrozenRoy: Will you be back soon Agi.
[2:16:52 AM] SmashDaddy: (waiting)
[2:17:01 AM] Agidius: Uncertain
[2:17:08 AM] FrozenRoy: Sadfaec.
[2:17:12 AM] Phatcat: Agi is, at this very moment, driving to the store
[2:17:12 AM] Agidius: half an hour?
[2:17:26 AM] Agidius: but yeah, dead
[2:17:28 AM] FrozenRoy: Oh is that all.
[2:17:31 AM] FrozenRoy: Okay see you then.
[2:17:38 AM] SmashDaddy: It pains me when you guys derail the conversation.
[2:17:48 AM] Phatcat: You should likely get that checked out
[2:17:58 AM] FrozenRoy: Oh man it killed the call.
[2:17:59 AM] Junahu: break time? We can pick up when we come back
[2:18:06 AM] Phatcat: Yeah, sure

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Responses

  1. Good to see this up. Bad to see Agi talk about Illbleed being a “flop” before it’s even out. Yes it has been heavily-delayed, but for perfectly valid reasons. I actually think giving it time to develop has been to its great benefit.

    Anyway, I hope to take part in this movement discussion again whenever it pops up, was very fun to take part.

  2. Duck Twacy went wrong? Duck Twacy was never supposed to go RIGHT! I mean, Neon Noodle was a sticker, Khold was drafted without even being shown the cartoon or context of the movement, Warlord sabotaged the continuity of the page for lulz and Kupa made a moveset for Double Header. Double Header!

    The way I see it – just thinking out loud – movement can be successful in two ways. It can be made up of a bunch of excellent movesets, or it can in some way link a bunch of (maybe excellent, maybe not) movesets into a better whole. I think the Punch Out sets were enriched by being variations on the same theme, just like I think that the Castlevania movesets were enriched by something as simple as having matching organization and tone. It can be an aim that all the movesets have in common, an aesthetic that they all shoot for, some sort of gameplay link, whatever. If you have no uniting factor except that they’re all from the same source, you get a Duck Twacy sort of thing, much as I tried to make up some subtheme of chasing universal to all of them.

    Of course, having something to tie them together is very nice for making a movement as a whole enjoyable and fun but it doesn’t help the movesets themselves if they’re not very good on their own. If they can’t stand up on their own, it’s just going to be a series of related disappointments and then the whole movement goes down in infamy.

    Is the point of a movement just to get people to churn out movesets? Restrictions breed creativity kind of thing? If it is, forget the whole, it’s just about choosing the right series that’ll get the enthusiasm going. But if the point is to make something bigger and more memorable as a whole than just a collection of good movesets (which is what, say, the Ginyu Force was – but who remembers the Ginyu Force and not just Jeice, Burter, maybe Guldo? (yes yes I have no idea which sets anybody remembers but you get the point – people’ll remember the sets individually but not the whole movement)), then I think there’s something to having an unofficial leader, a common vision for the project, plenty of communication, some more intelligent design and collaboration in the procedure. To me, this seems like a more exciting way to go with the whole movement thing, although I know we’re big on our individuality and in the past movements have more often been “everybody just do your best with this subject matter”.

    Don’t really have thoughts on joints or previewing. Never really did either, except Halberd Crew. That was a hell of an event that set, and not because the individual sets were any good but because they became something more as three parts of a whole. Or maybe it was just bias and hype.

    Good discussion anyway. I’ve been wondering for weeks now what’s going on with this Halloween catchup (and I’m glad you guys aren’t calling it that anymore – I mean come on, since when did MYM have trouble with posting villainous or scary movesets on days other than Halloween?) and it’s nice to get a peephole into what’s going on behind the scenes.

  3. The Punch-Out movement worked because it basically WASN’T a movement. It was more “Oh hey, here’s some good characters to practice developing other traits of movesetting besides individual move wackiness”, and there’s enough diversity among the Punch-Out cast for everyone to find a specific character they like.

    Totally agree about one of the main failings of movements being for someone being forced to do the main character. I think future movements should only be suggested by someone who wants to do said main character to begin with. So for example, I’m someone who could start a Sly Cooper movement, but there’s no way in heck you’ll see me suggest a Street Fighter movement; I’m not too interested in making a Ryu moveset.

  4. know what could be a cool movement? the leader come sup with a “base set” with each move vaguely spelled out.

    Each member then interprets the moves to make a character/set off of it.

  5. Oddly enough, Org XIII’s deadline was also set months in advance just like TF2. Then again, I was also checking on everyone at least every two weeks.

    To answer the issue on picking MYMers, you may remember the time I sent invites to almost everyone regarding the Org XIII movement, back when it was only Smashbot and I involved at its beginning. The first thing I wanted to do was to find everyone who was interested enough in the franchise, and everyone who didn’t know it or like it. That way, I could ask people who’d have reason to commit to finishing the sets on time (i.e. Khold) while not pushing those who hated the series, no matter how awesome I find them (i.e. FA).

    I don’t think that any amount of preparation time helps movements, if they’re going to have a deadline. You’ll get things like MDA and Clown pulling out early though at least mentioning it in advance, but you’ll also get things like Kits becoming unable to finish Luxord because life, and then scrambling to find someone who could (At the time, Kat’s alarming moveset rate made me think he’d be too hard-pressed to help out). And of course, there’ll be problems on the day itself that could never have been planned before – it occurs to me just how wrong things could’ve gone if I didn’t have Smashbot helping me out.

    I’ll admit that the inverse proportion of sets-to-quality hits Org XIII pretty hard (with the exception of Demyx, which I attribute more to a lack of skill at the time [no offense, Froy]), and that Rool’s assessment kind of applies to the movement in the present as well (since Luxord and Zexion are remembered mores than the likes of Xemnas and Axel, odd). If I had to pick one reason for spearheading the whole thing in the first place, though, it’d be that I wanted to see this whole organization of characters out on the brawling fields, doing what no one else can in MYM fashion. It’s true that guys like Demyx, Xaldin and Xigbar could still deserve better sets, but I’m still proud of what I and many others were able to accomplish that day. (Oh, that lovely day when at least a dozen sets suddenly exploded onto a single page…)


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